Obama visits returning war dead at Dover AFB
October 29, 2009 posted by John Allen · 17 Comments
In today’s New York Times there is an article concerning the President visiting the returning war dead at Dover AFB. Thank you Mr. President, I appreciate your leadership. Just one mild suggestion however from a fellow Democrat and one who voted for you. It is about saluting. Civilians do not do it. Ever.
It is not appropriate for civilians to use a military salute. Please place your hand over your heart in these situations, that is the proper response from the President. The last thing we need in this country is more and continual perpetuation of the "militarization" of American politics and the American civilian chain of command. It is not appropriate in our civilian led government to "militarize" our civic duties.
We want civilians in charge at all times in this Republic. I appreciate your attempt at respect but you are the President, and not a general. Please act like the civilian in charge at all times. That is what we want from this Republic’s commander in chief of the armed forces, a civilian. Thank you sir.
In other news from the Times today we find an article here concerning American military aid to Pakistani forces presently battling the Taliban.
Here is an article concerning corruption in Iraq and how it will affect American relations with that government and within the Middle East in general. Here is a quote from the article:
“These car bombs didn’t come from the sky!” said Judge Abdul Sattar al-Beiriqdar, spokesman for the Higher Judicial Council. “They must have been driven in streets until they reached their target. If there were no corruption, the attackers wouldn’t risk passing through these checkpoints.”
But the corruption runs much deeper, endangering the fragile sense of security in Iraq as America draws down its forces, with security services that seem aimed as much at enriching themselves as protecting average Iraqis, according to dozens of interviews with police officers and officials as well as the report by the Interior Ministry.
“Corruption is a phenomenon that forms a real threat to the structure of the state,” Jawad Bolani, the interior minister, said in a recent interview. His ministry is Iraq’s second largest, employing one of every four Iraqis working in the public sector, which accounts for a vast majority of the jobs in Iraq."
Here is an article on the constitutional problems of allowing police agencies in our country to have the tremendously dangerous and sweeping investigative powers that they now have under the Patriot Act. American police agencies on all levels of government now have police powers that literally compare to that of Gestappo in Nazi Germany. This is becoming a real constitutional crisis and a danger to our freedoms as Americans.
This is a quote from a prominent Arab American on the problem with the FBI in the Muslim American community.
"Farhana Khera, president of Muslim Advocates, said the F.B.I. was harassing Muslim-Americans by singling them out for scrutiny. Her group was among those that sued the bureau to release the manual.
“We have seen even in recent months the revelation of the F.B.I. going into mosques — not where they have a specific reason to believe there is criminal activity, but as ‘agent provocateurs’ who are trying to incite young individuals to join a purported terror plot,” Ms. Khera said. “We think the F.B.I. should be focused on following actual leads rather than putting entire communities under the microscope.”
Now here is a very interesting article with direct links to veterans with brain injuries due to service connected disabilities recieved in Service. We are not alone in being neglected by those who are responsible for our medical care after injury. The National Football League is neglecting its former players with brain injuries. The league is not taking care of its old and injured players. Here is the story, I am sure you can relate to it.
In testimony before the House the commissioner was evasive when questioned. Imagine that! Where have seen that before? Here is a quote from that article. It will sound very familiar.
“The N.F.L. sort of has this blanket denial or minimizing of the fact that there may be this link,” Representative Linda T. Sánchez, Democrat of California, said to Mr. Goodell during the daylong hearing. “And it sort of reminds me of the tobacco companies pre-’90s when they kept saying, ‘Oh, there’s no link between smoking and damage to your health.’ ”
When pressed, Mr. Goodell would not say whether he thought there was a link between football and cognitive decline among N.F.L. players. He did say, “I can think of no issue to which I’ve devoted more time and attention than the health and well-being of our players, and particularly retired players.”
“We are changing the culture of our game for the better,” he later added."
Now it is not only old disabled veterans that we throw to the wayside, it is old and disabled football players. Well, you know what? This is only to get worse until we realize in this country that we are a national community and we start acting like it.
Here is an article on the deadly attacks on Pakistanis that Secretary of State Clinton’s visit to Pakistan set off. Here is a quote from the article:
"ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Militants in Pakistan and Afghanistan punctuated Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton’s arrival here with deadly attacks on Wednesday, underscoring their ability to cause chaos even in the face of offensives on both sides of the border.
In Pakistan, a devastating car bomb tore through a congested market in the northwest city of Peshawar, killing as many as 101 people, many of them women and children. Pakistani authorities said the attack was the country’s most serious in two years, and the deadliest ever in Peshawar, which has become a front line for Taliban efforts to destabilize the government through violence."
Notice how western media keeps referring to the attackers in all cases as militants or terrorists or Taliban or Al Qaeda. They keep giving them names that do not reflect who they really are. We are missing the point completely when we do not name them correctly.
These are ultra conservative, super orthodox Wahabist inspired fundamentalist Muslims in all cases. These are the Muslim version of Cromwell’s Roundheads. These are anarchists with just a touch of "G*d" in their psyche to give them legitimacy in their own minds.
These people want Islam to be spread by the sword. The ultimate goal for subjegation is the West but they are starting their bloody crusade Westward with their own secular governments. We had better pay attention here and start using precise words for the enemies of civilization and they are not "militants" or "terrorists".
These killers pray five times a day. They are fastidious in all of their religious observances. They stone adulterers to death. They execute prostitutes with beheadings. They are the People of G*d in their own minds. We need to start calling a spade a spade here and stop hiding behind foggy terms like militant or terrorist.
These are ultra conservative religionists who have perverted Islam for their own sick blood lust and they are looking Westward. We need to clearly understand who we are up against here.
These are religious fanatics who would not know a Prohet of G*d if they tripped over him. They have deluded themselves into thinking they are religious and G*dly and they have perverted one of the world’s great religions to evil ends. They are truly evil and they are incapable of seeing that.
They have perverted the letter of the law within the Koran and have chosen a lifestyle enshrining strict religious observance to the "nth" degree over the true and peaceful Spirit of G*d. They are children of Evil.
One in four people on this planet is now a Muslim. If these anarchists with a veneer of religion gain any more of a foothold in the Islamic world then they have already, the entire planet could be plunged into world war. It is time for us to come up with a new plan to stop them. Bullets won’t hold them back.
We need to do all that we can to bring Islam back to the Muslims. They have lost it. That much is now obvious.
We need to think about this and come up with a plan and then execute it and we need to do it quickly. Bullets and bombs can not kill an idea motivating religionists who are deluded with a twisted idea of spirituality. These people are on a crusade to "cleanse" Islam first and then cleanse the West. We must not delude ourselves as to what is happening here.
In this article, the Russian field marshall in charge of Soviet forces in Afghanistan had a meeting with the Soviet Politburo on November 13, 1986. He had to explain what was happening to the Soviet forces in Afghanistan to his civilian bosses. Russian and American scholars have just found the transcripts. They are chilling and could very well be reflective of an American general speaking to Congress on any day in the present time. The problem is essentially the same story we are seeing played out now.
In this article, we see that in Iraq, virtually every political party has its own army. Great. Just what we need.
Finally in the section entitled On This Day we read the following: "On Oct. 29, 1929, stock prices collapsed on the New York Stock Exchange amid panic selling. Thousands of investors were wiped out. "
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
Remember, get informed and stay informed. An informed veteran is a comfort to his friends and a danger to his adversaries.
CWO3 Tom Barnes, USCG (Ret.)
Tom, The President is the Commander in Chief , if you watch old videos,all Presidents have saluted !
Yes, you are right. He is the Commander in Chief. But he is a civilian commander in chief, and that is very, very important. Eisenhower, a retired 5 star general, never saluted to my knowledge while he was President. He did the proper thing. He placed his hand over his heart on those ocassions that required a salute.
These things such as salutes are symbolic, and therefore they take on an important greater than simple liturgy. They mean something.
I don’t want the civilian elected to the highest office in the land to salute like he is a general. He is more than a general and he represents the nation, and NOT the military alone.
They should not salute. It gives the impression that we are a banana republic run by a generalissimo.
Tom,
Take your point but if President Obama were to return a salute with his hand over his heart (contra every modern president) what do you believe the political ramifications would be? Every moron in front of a camera on cable TV would speak of nothing else.
You are quite correct in the logic of your argument, but changing this symbol now is the very last thing that should be done.
Leon:
You are probably absolutely correct. I do not doubt what you are saying.
But we have to stop at all costs the creeping militarization of our government. This nonsense started under Reagan and reached its height under Dubya constantly referring to the Attorney General as "General…" This is nuts.
These people are civilians elected or appointed to office to run the nation by the elecorate or appointed by the president with the advice and consent of Congress. That is very, very important that this distinction be codified in their public behavior on ceremonial occasions.
I do not want a military president under ANY conditions. Ever. Anywhere or anytime.
As far as I know, the Flag Code does not allow any one not wearing a uniform to salute. I could be wrong about that, but I don’t think it is the way that these things are done. And even if I am wrong and veterans out of uniform are allowed to salute, the President should not do it. It just is not right.
We are not a banana republic where one general after another simply takes over the presidency. It smacks of dictatorship in my mind.
Whenever I see a picture in the paper of a guy in a suit saluting a military honor guard it is usually a photo of a dictator who was the leading general three months ago but is now the "president" of some impoverished and repressed nation with the army’s boot on the neck of the people. It screams fascism to me.
All I can see when I see these photos is Pinochet or Franco or Mussolini or Hitler or Castro in his military fatigues or some Asian despot who is now "president" because three months ago the CIA helped him overthrow the king or the shah or the sheikh or the legally elected left leaning president who we fear because he is not friendly to our aims. I see repression when I see this.
It is not appropriate for the civilian president of the greatest democratic republic on the planet to mimic military stylisms for ceremony. It is in fact chilling. The psuedo-heros that we have elected in the past forty years or so started this nonsense and it must stop. This is simply wrong. I do not expect this from the most enlightened civilian led government in the world.
I would really like to see it end.
CWO3 Tom Barnes, USCG (Ret.)
Tom, Leo, and all,
What I see of great value here is that our President is acknowledging the returning of our dead soldiers. He was at Dover AFB when they returned to our/their country. Some can say this was a strategic political moment, but I say that it was a moment long overdue and can appreciate the recognition these soldiers received. The soldiers are no longer coming home in the shadows of the night, without obvious public notice. It is a step towards taking responsibility and making our fallen soldiers as important as they always were, not only to their families and friends, but to those of us who are not immediate harm’s way. It is the very least that can be done when they very sadly return home this way.
Carol
Carol:
You are absolutely correct of course. The larger issue here is that the President of the United States went to Dover to meet the bodies and paid personal respect to our military dead. I concede the point and admit that you have grasped the larger point.
I just hate all the psuedo-military Ramboism that now seems normal among our civlian government. I don’t want a military government here. Ever. I want civilian government. That is why we are so strong, the community runs the nation, not the army or navy.
I really wish all the military nonsense among our civilians leaders would end. It is not in the best traditions of our people and does not speak to democracy, it speaks to militant army based fascism.
OK, CWO3 is right. President Obama should not salute, but as far as i know the last guy(s) in charge never showed up at Dover to acknowledge them coming home for the last time. A small gaff. I forgive him. Myself, it would be a powerful moment and I might do the same thing and I ain’t nothing in the food chain. Just another GI that would acknowledge another GI.
Me being the evil person that I am, a long time ago I watched a Brit salute and adopted it kinda (ya know the arm goes up and Sproiiing, it vibrates to a stop). Did that one time to a Lieutenant and it scared him enough to take a step back, then salute me too. Figured I was up to no good…
With all due respect, I suggest CWO3 Barnes and other commentators supportive of his position double check their positions on this before venturing to admonish President Obama. I’m no fan of Obama, and I don’t claim to be certain that what I’m about to say is right, but I just checked with two military retirees with fifty years of service between them, one a former senior staff NCO in the Marine Corps and the second a senior naval officer, and both agreed that the president, as Commander in Chief, has both the right and option to render a military-style salute. Reagan did so regularly:
http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/photographs/large/c22149-32.jpg
According to the naval officer, historically, the president has always been the only civilian exception until recently, when a change in regulations permitted all military retirees to do likewise at their option.
If someone finds the official, published protocol on this, post a link here. I’d like to see it.
Thank you for the information. Again, I am open to his willingness to pay respects to the war dead. And if he has the right to salute, or even if he does not, it is his decision to make.
Still and all, it is a military rite exercised by a civilian official who is the President of the United States and I do not think it is appropriate in a civilian led democracy. It is not a personal thing, I voted for the guy and am a very involved Democrat in politics here in Northern Virginia.
I am just saying that these symbolic things have importance, they do not exist in a vacuum. I don’t want civilian Presidents or civilian government officials mimicing military formalisms. It confuses our friends and encourages our enemies. We have civilian government here. I support that and do not think it is appropriate for civilian leaders to mimic soldiers.
That is all I am saying. I find it to be fascistic.
I have seen Kennedy salute in person.
I have a photo of Pres Ike saluting the colors and the OOD while leaving a USN ship.
Clinton saluted and I believe Carter did as well. We have all seen Pres AWOL Bush salute.
I believe that there is no protocol on this nor should there be.
The pres is after all, the Commander in Chief, the CIC, in fact …. the HMFIC.
I am a former White House guard (US Marine during Nixon White House). Per USMC protocol (I checked and it still holds today) the President can salute or not it is his option.
For me the salute is a sign of respect.
The one thing I would always ask is that the salute be performed correctly. From what I saw this morning President Obama performed a correct and completely appropriate salute.
Considering he has never served, in order to present a salute that well I suspect he sought and received coaching.
All I can say is bravo Mr. President.
very well said, sir.
Well for it was all a dog and pony show..didn’t mean squat…
As far as him saluting..he can kiss off…he doesn’t have a clue…
I wonder, since he has played golf more on 9 months as President then Bush did in 3 yrs and he plays a lot of basketball and throws a lot of partys and runs all over giving speeches and not taking any action on the state of the country.
If maybe he is using Coke again..he once was Mr. Coke head you know.
Makes one think huh? All action, all that engery, never sits still, hmmmm..is Mr. President really Mr. Coke Head again?
Mr. Rick,
Please be aware, the President of the United States of America has chosen to honor those young men who gave their lives in service to this country, your politicising this fact and making negative comments tells me your are one of the conservative idiots who is calling for Obamas execution. You sir are committing TREASON you and all of your fascist imbeciles should be prosecuted just like Hanoi Jane should have. You are a disgrace to the military veterans of this country. Finally Tom the Flag code was changed this year or last so that any veteran can use the hand salute, covered or not. This obviously includes the President when he is acting as CIC, not when he is acting politically.
Sorry but you’re wrong, as others have pointed out, he’s the CiC and thus a Salute is the Appropriate Salutation to Soldiers, Officers and Especially the Flag Draped Coffins of the Fallen in the presence of their families and as to their service under his command. if you watch the video look at what Holder and the other Cabinet members are doing, Hand On Hearts, In Honor a Civilian Salute. Your intentions may be alright but it sounds like a beckish or rush spin on reality, or dare say all of fox!
I have been wrong before and I will be wrong again.
I am not arguing for any legalistic reading of whether or not his salute was right or wrong. I am saying that in my opinion, civilian leaders of governments that adopt military formalisms act in a manner consistent with fascistic government structures. All the fascists did this in the 1920s and 30s and 40s. It is that fascists history of civilians saluting in suits, of civilians adopting military rites that I object to…it does not bode well for our culture.
I like Obama. I voted for him. I am an active Democrat. I have no problem with him doing whatever he wants on this level. I just object to it theoretically. It is too fascist a thing to do for my blood.
I just don’t like civilian leaders apeing military gestures. It is not healthy in a cultural sense.
CWO3 Tom Barnes, USCG (Ret.)
All the Presidents I have even seen salute the Marines that work the stairs of Marine One, and military officers that are on hand to see the President arrive and depart military installations, I would not complain about the CinC make a Salute to the the men and women that have paid the ultimate price for our nation.
He has been accused already by some on the right for even going to Dover, he is going to get bashed regardless of what he does. The rules of it make the President our elected leader and also head of all military forces, he sets the policy and he is at the very top of the chain of command, he just does NOT wear a uniform, now that would be carrying it to far and none ever has, I don’t believe General Washington even wore one after elected to the Presidency.
Of the remains that returned that night only the one family allowed the President be filmed while the transfer was made from the plane to the transport vehicles, this isone trip that none in the previous administration ever made and would not even allow any news organizations to take pictures let alone have anyone else release them, the American public need to see these caskets come home, they should also be publishing the number of severely wounded more than 1000 alone in the past 3 months in Afghanistan. They need to know the real price not just the off budget billions being allocated to Iraq and Afghanistan, anything that makes the Congress and public sit up and pay attention, even a President making a Salute to the fallen it is more appropriate than Saluting door handlers on military aircraft. Just my 2 cents