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Is Congress and the President Waiting for an Army to Die?
Although that is not the title of this very recent media release by Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA) to address all the questions now swirling around the internet dealing with Agent Orange, but my title sure raises too many valid questions that require answers now.
Without agreeing or disagreeing with everything that is in this recent June 11, 2010 press release from VVA President John Rowan, we leave that to our readers.
Below without comment is what VVA has to say about all the discussions floating around in cyberspace. The only comment I wish to make as a Life Member of VVA, thus as the writer do not want to take a pro or con position on this statement either way, is that WE as a Veterans organization must do a better job in helping to define what we mean by “Vietnam-era veterans were also exposed in their service elsewhere in Southeast Asia during the war, including in Thailand and Laos, and aboard Navy vessels off the coast of Vietnam, as well as certain military bases located in the continental U.S. and its territories.”
It is the “as well as certain military bases located in the continental U.S. and its territories,” that has me concerned not only as a member of VVA, but also having passed through or served in one of those territories (Okinawa before reversion to Japan was a U.S. territory).
Such a vague statement leaves us open to speculation, and relying on the Department of the Air Force, or the Department of Defense to truthfully and accurately publish a list confirming or denying the use of Agent Orange some 30 plus years ago where ever as DoD fights a two war front today that could potentially expose our troops to chemical or related hazards from these wars is simply unrealistic. It is up to us Veterans Service Organizations to find out the truth about the extent of Agent Orange use, where it was use, sprayed, stored, trans-shipped, and so on.
Robert L. Hanafin, Major, U.S. Air Force-Retired, Veterans Today News
Statement by VVA President John Rowan:
VVA Calls for Support of the Decision by VA Secretary
To Declare Presumptive Agent Orange/Dioxin and
VVA Calls on the President and Congress to Fund Research Now, And Not Wait for an Army to Die
(WASHINGTON, D.C.) — There have been reports in the media recently in which some, including Senator Jim Webb, seem to question the legitimacy of service-connected disability compensation for exposure to Agent Orange/Dioxin on the battlefield, such as Type II diabetes mellitus and ischemic heart disease. Further, it appears that there is confusion on the part of some about how the process established by the Agent Orange Act of 1991 should and does work.
The facts of the matter are so clear that, after deliberation, Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA) restates our position which is dictated by those clear facts:
First, Public Law 102-4, the Agent Orange Act of 1991, was enacted to address a plethora of health issues in veterans that stemmed from our exposure to Agent Orange while serving in-country. Congress, in its collective wisdom, passed this legislation because of the severe impact exposure to dioxin was wreaking on the lives of tens of thousands of veterans.
Senator Webb is mistaken about the intent of the law, which is understandable, because Webb was not in the Congress at that time. By the same token, no Senator or Member of Congress suggested, at the time of passage, that there should be any arbitrary or artificial limit placed on diseases covered, or on the numbers of veterans who might be affected, and, hence, covered. Rather, a process was set up to seek the level of association, if any, between exposure and the onset of specific diseases. Just as no one today would even think that we, as a nation, would cease treating and compensating our troops and veterans suffering from Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI), simply because the incidence is far more prevalent among returning warriors than anyone might have imagined five years ago.
Second, we strongly support the actions of VA Secretary Eric K. Shinseki in following both the letter and the spirit of Public Law 102-4, to conclude that the evidence analyzed by a distinguished panel from the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences and published in the 2008 Biennial Review of Veterans and Agent Orange: Health Effects of Herbicides Used in Vietnam was compelling enough to declare Parkinson’s disease, B cell leukemias, and ischemic heart disease as service-connected presumptive due to Agent Orange for those in the military who served in Vietnam (and along the demilitarized zone in Korea in 1968 and 1969).
Third, VVA can unequivocally state that the process set up by Congress under the Agent Orange Act continues to be the most objective and valid way of making decisions regarding environmental diseases of military service. These decisions should be scientific, not political. Any Secretary of the VA should adhere to the process, required by law, and follow the facts, as Secretary Shinseki has done.
Fourth, the evidence for inclusion of diabetes mellitus type II as a presumptive disease is very strong. It is true that people are more prone to develop type II diabetes as they age, but the facts of the matter are that Vietnam veterans are at least more than twice as likely to develop this disease as the non-veterans in our cohort group, when balanced for age, weight, exercise, and diet. The same is true of prostate cancer and other service-connected presumptive conditions.
This points, yet again, to the need for federal funding of additional research into the adverse health impacts on Vietnam veterans, on our children, and on our grandchildren, by respected independent scientific entities outside of the VA. This is just as evident today as it was twenty years ago. The clear need for such research is even more pressing today, given the number of Vietnam veterans who have died well before their time in the last twenty years, and the number who are continuing to die early because of the ravages resulting from exposure to Agent Orange/dioxin in Southeast Asia.
Lastly, there have been media reports that the amendment to Emergency Supplemental Appropriation by Senator Webb would delay the process, and thus delay the payment of justly due back compensation to affected veterans, pushing off the time when veterans who are owed back compensation actually will receive their entitled compensation. This simply is not the case. Neither action by Senator Webb nor anyone else has thus far caused any action that will slow down the payment of claims as soon as the VA can work though the public rule-making process to get this accomplished.
We urge all affected Vietnam veterans and eligible surviving dependents to file claims for the newly presumptive diseases associated with Agent Orange: Parkinson’s disease, B Cell leukemias, and ischemic heart disease. These diseases bring the total to 14 illness categories that entitle Vietnam veterans–and veterans who served along the demilitarized zone in Korea in 1968 and 1969–to health care and disability compensation.
VVA also contends that many Vietnam-era veterans were also exposed in their service elsewhere in Southeast Asia during the war, including in Thailand and Laos, and aboard Navy vessels off the coast of Vietnam, as well as certain military bases located in the continental U.S. and its territories.
Among the other diseases recognized by the VA as presumptive to exposure to Agent Orange are diabetes mellitus (Type 2), non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, prostate cancer, and respiratory cancers (of the lung, bronchus, larynx, or trachea). Additional information about these and other presumptive diseases and long-term health care risks for veterans can be found at the Veterans Health Council web site, www.veteranshealth.org, and in the VVA Self-help Guide to Service-Connected Disability Compensation For Exposure to Agent Orange.
Contact: Mokie Porter
301-585-4000, Ext. 146
Source: at www.vva.org/Guides/AgentOrangeGuide.pdf
Short URL: http://www.veteranstoday.com/?p=36470
Posted by Robert L. Hanafin on Jun 17 2010, With 0 Reads, Filed under Agent Orange, Veteran Service Organizations. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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Veterans Today Editorial Comment:
“As well as certain military bases located in the continental U.S. and its territories.”
The collective WE need to do a much better job of defining what this means instead of leaving the vague definition left open to speculation with the result being that Veterans enduring the pain and suffering of whatever ails them being distracted and wasting precious life threatening time trying to define this for a government that by record, history, and tradition has done everything inhumanely possible to oppose the recognition of Agent Orange let alone admit where it has been sprayed, transported, shipped, stored, or simple existed.
VVA says that there are already scientific approaches set in place circa 1991 after Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) among other more radical elements of the Vietnam Veterans Movement took ACTION to make that law a reality. Well maybe what we need to do today is apply some of those scientific means to accurately define where Agent Orange of simply anything the is killing our troops and Veterans actually is located outside the vague term “the Continental United States and our territories.”
Lastly, simply relying as the VA does to deny VA Claims and Appeals based solely on some statement from the Air Force, DoD, that their are no records of Agent Orange or even Dioxin use, storage, shipment, whatever in some American territory is about as dumb as accepting our government’s word that Agent Orange was not killing Vietnam Veterans circa 1991.
Some like in VVAW were courageous enough to no shit take a stand that go Agent Orange shoved down our government’s throat as the truth going against uphill odds. Ask any Vietnam Veteran regardless of their views on their war, yes their war, who Jim Hopkins of California was, what he did, and what the result was.
They may agree, disagree, commend, or condemn what Vietnam Veteran Hopkins did in driving his jeep through the lobby of a state of the art for its time VA Medical Center, but history of Agent Orange tells us Hopkins got enough attention to bring on a law suit against Dow Chemical Company (among others), forced our government to get serious about other problems facing Vietnam Veterans or else, and lastly the climate created by ACTION encourage Congress to Act to pass the Agent Orange Act of 1991.
Many older Veterans who gave no thought about the Vietnam War other than how we had been spit on from all sides, blamed for participating in the war, and then fought against by our government to get Agent Orange, PTSD, and so on even recognized let alone compensated or treated.
I for one believe it is way past time, and most likely more productive to learn and understand the background of how these issues were historically brought to public attention, the mechanisms used to bring them to the public attention, and the politics that surrounded it all including the split between VVAW and VVA.
A respected friend of mine recently wrote an article based on her book about the Politics of PTSD that have their origins in the Vietnam Veterans movement.
VVA says “These decisions should be scientific, not political.” Yet, to deny the Politics of Agent Orange is just as deadly to America’s Veterans as denying the Politics of PTSD, Politics of Gulf War Illness, Politics of Depleted Uranium, or soon to be if not now Politics of Traumatic Brain Injury.
The historic politics of all these Veterans movements speaks volumes, the best course of action is a combination of legal litigation, scientific evidence and research, political action, if it calls for the kinds of radical action taken by Jim Hopkins, well if that is what it takes. However, the Department of Veterans Affairs campuses today are armed camps compared to back in the day, so I for one cannot condone any radical action that will only get Veteran hurt, because VA Medical Centers are armed camps for one reason and one only – to protect the VA from those it is suppose to serve.
Robert L. Hanafin
I learned a long time ago Veterans organizations are not ahead of the curve when it comes to veterans issue such as agent orange. Vietnam Veterans of America was the first veterans organization to demand public awareness Agent Orange a problem for those that served in Vietnam. This I give them this credit.
The second thing I learned was this when a veteran organization continues to blab about an issue such as agent orange or PTSD it usually has more to do with grand standing and membership drives then actually in supporting of the issue being discussed. It has more to do with looking publicly.
Sadly!!! The US government cannot pay veterans everything they think they deserve. The money veterans think they deserve is going to go to those that actually have clout! Not veterans who have zero clout. Yes the decision by Webb is political. Because veterans like or or not do not have any clout past trying to make America feeling guilty.
Just like veterans of the US civil war found out they were cannon fodder today’s veterans will find out the same fact.
Veterans Today Editorial Comment:
“Vietnam Veterans of America was the first veterans organization to demand public awareness Agent Orange a problem for those that served in Vietnam. This I give them this credit.”
We believe Archie Haase that if Veterans do their homework, and yes there is documented post-Vietnam media and Congressional coverage from the late 1970s to late 1980s on-line one can check out, libraries, college campuses and so on that reflect VVA was not the first Vietnam Veterans organization that took ACTION to bring Agent Orange to public attention, it was frankly a splinter of Veterans groups mostly of course outside the mainstream who at this time sided with the government on issues related to Agent Orange and PTSD.
Maybe it can be argued that VVA had acquired the political clout to be able to make Agent Orange a humanitarian, social, medical, and political issue, but Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) went beyond simply protesting the war to the aftermath of the war, especially given the war ended circa 1975.
The battles over Agent Orange did not reach a zenith until the early 1980s with Veterans doing sit-ins and demonstrations at VA hospitals.
At this point is no longer relevant who championed the cause of Agent Orange and PTSD except the historic record shows that the American Legion and VFW did not. The only mainstream VSO we are aware of that even listened to Vietnam Veterans was the DAV and even they listened with caution.
The concept that troops could be genetically harmed by the wars they fight is frankly something our government does not want debated right now, nuff said.
Do you realize how much harm this discussion does to the current war effort?
What if those going to military recruiting stations today begin to listen to such debates or their parents listen to such debates about our government not being trusted to care for its warriors once the war is over – DAH.
We’d have to assume that those 156 Vietnam Era or in-country Veterans would be stupid to let their children or grand -children join the military. In fact, it could be argued that those Veterans already diagnosed with Agent Orange or any genetic defect that could be passed onto children or grand-children that said children could be barred from enlistment based on prior existing medical conditions, their parent(s) were exposed to Agent Orange thus the possibly of them becoming ill while on active duty is higher than recruits not genetically exposed to Agent Orange.
To debate Agent Orange today opens a Pandora’s box that you are right, frankly our government does not want to hear about what happened 20 or 30 years ago when it will have to deal with what happened during the Gulf War and Global War on Agent Orange, I mean Terror.
Bobby I was involved in what was going on in 1978 to the mid 80′s with PTSD called delayed stress. My ears heard a lot about Agent Orange because that was on the News all the time. Senator Tom Dascle of South Dakota a fellow South Dakotan had hearing after hearing on it. I have had friends testifying at these congressional hearings.
VVA and Bobby Mueller unlike the other major Vets organizations stepped out of the dark and took some hits over Agent Orange.
There were many small groups, mostly individuals Bobby. Many people want glory. But let me tell you there was no glory in being a combat veteran advocate at the time. Mostly insults, and many from fellow veterans.
The Vietnam Veterans VVA was the big boy. Give them credit where it is due.
If you want to know exactly who was behind the scenes doing the grunt work on Agent Orange it was a guy named Dead Philips. Dean was an aid to Max Cleland. Dean was a good friend of mine. He died of Agent Orange long before his time. A hospital needs to be named after him.
Many people like to take credit for things they did not do. Dean did do and died before his time. Vets here should remember him.
Archie,
Thanks for you thoughtful and respectful response:
“VVA and Bobby Mueller unlike the other major Vets organizations stepped out of the dark and took some hits over Agent Orange.
Bro from 1978 to the mid 80′s, I had already worked at the VA under Max Cleland, way under at ground level, I was working my way through college on both the Vietnam Era GI Bill, full time employment by the VA who BTW recruited me, and an Air Force ROTC stipend of $100 bucks a month, because as prior service I could not qualify for an ROTC scholarship. The prior service ROTC program was two years instead of four, and you came in as a senior cadet. I got my BA degree in Foreign Area Studies, and my Air Force commission.
I went on active duty again in 1977 after having been in the regular Army then Army Reserve from 1969 to 1977 when the Army released me to the Air Force one day before my commission so that I would have no break in service. I took a leave of absence from the VA for extended military service in order to retain my civil service rating.
Point: When folks in Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), then VVA were doing the heavy lifting I was in college, working inside the VA observing what all the fuss was about as I began to interact with younger Vets of our generation (mostly amputees like Bobby Mueller (sorry I got Bobby’s last name wrong the first time round). However, where was Bobby Mueller prior to founding VVA? I’d have to believe even you may have been a member of VVAW at some time, or a related group that once opposed the war?
Brother Archie, I’m not trying to take anything away from VVA except the fact that VVA downplays its origins from VVAW to include many founding members of VVA being former VVAW members and even regional organizers. Unless I got my history wrong, I believe John Rowan once mentioned in his bio, it may not be there now, that he was a regional organizer from VVAW in New York before moving to VVA?
Unless I have my history wrong, my best friend dearly departed Randy Barnes was also a significant member of VVAW before moving to VVA, and Randy was proud of the fact he had been in VVAW til the day he died. I know this first hand, because Randy was my mentor to join both VVA and VVAW. I’m a member of both now, but lean towards VVAW and IVAW for they have NO VOICE. They have about as much voice up against the established VSOs as VVAW and VVA did back in the day.
You say Archie that, “There were many small groups, mostly individuals Bobby. Many people want glory. But let me tell you there was no glory in being a combat veteran advocate at the time. Mostly insults, and many from fellow veterans.
The Vietnam Veterans VVA was the big boy. Give them credit where it is due.”
I also understand this, Vietnam Victims of America (VVA) took big time hits from the Veterans for Nixon crowd beginning with B.G. Burkett’s Stolen Valor, but where was VVA when the Stolen Valor Act was passed based on that piece of shit? It can’t be because the politician who introduced it was a Blue Dog Democrat from Colorado (almost a Republican).
Politics aside I give VVA credit where credit is due, because as you know better than I, VVA was able to break away best it could from its VVAW origins (despite some leadership having opposed the war in the streets)in order to embrace and bring in a larger membership (a membership drive). Frankly, as a neutral bystander who did not do the heavy lifting for either VVAW or VVA, I say that VVA had nothing to be ashamed of given its ties with VVAW despite some ideological split whatever the reason.
Frankly, I pray that Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (IAVA) and Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW) will not make the same MISTAKES in Veterans organization my generation made and somehow find common ground even if they do not share the glory views on their war vs. the horrors of war.
With all due respect, Archie, and I mean that with all my heart, from what I learned in reading, I’m a history buff by nature and trade (military intelligence) I strongly believe it was VVAW that kept my name off the Wall that Heals in DC not VVA. Randy Barnes confirmed that view for me when I told him that I felt VVA had nothing to be ashamed of nor hide about their ties to VVAW. Hell, VVA even went out of its way to define the ties it did have during the 2004 election when the opposition (Swift Boaters for Bush) went out of their way to link John Kerry with IVAW, Kerry all but turned his back on his VVAW experience for political expediency just as fast as Barrack Obama turned his back on his religion, neither of them should have not regrets or shame of what they accomplished when they were YOUNG.
Robert L. Hanafin
SP5, U.S. Army (69-76)
Major, U.S. Air Force – Retired (77-94)
GS-14, U.S. Civil Service – Retired (73-76, and 94 – 2000)
Oops Brother,
The Major meant to say, “VVA even went out of its way to define the ties it did have during the 2004 election when the opposition (Swift Boaters for Bush) went out of their way to link John Kerry with VVAW, Kerry all but turned his back on his VVAW experience ‘for political expediency’ just as fast as Barrack Obama turned his back on his religion, neither of them should have no regrets or shame of what they accomplished when they were YOUNG in order to win VOTES that they most likely were not going to get anyway. I could dig it out from my records while running the Veterans for Kerry, then Veterans for Kerry/Edwards official campaign websites, but it is not worth it now, but VVA had to fend off attacks from right-wing Vets supporting Bush on VVA’s ties to VVAW. VVA during 2004 admitted that relationship almost as if they were ashamed of it – BULLSHIT! That’s weak dick to me, even if I am sincerely grateful to those who truly kept my name off the Wall that Heals.
I pray that someone in Iraq Veterans Against the War will one day be responsible for keeping a future Major or even maybe General off the Iraq and Afghanistan Memorial that heals.
No Bobby if you respected anyone here you would not confuse posts here with your writing tangled in between.
Separate your posts. Another thing do not put Vietnam era vets in the same category as those that served in combat. They were not in the same war.
You might not like it not many people (voters) care in the US whether veterans who are damaged by Agent Orange get any money. It might not be right but that is the way it is. Writing about it might get readers, and incite some anger. But it changes nothing.
Moving on believe who you want to be agent orange heroes. While you were getting in shape to double dip Major Bobby, Bobby Mueller was working his ass off. I say that and I never been a fan of his.
Letting you know about Dean Philips when you Vietnam Veterans Against the War and even Bobby Mueller where getting national press time, Dean was getting his ass kicked in congress and giving major veterans organizations hell for not being supportive.
That is where change happened not on television, but in congress and getting good people in the VA system, and rid of WW 2 hangers on. It’s taken years but thank god these veterans today do not have to deal with the same morons we had to in government in the 70′s and 80′s.
You see Major Bobby it is not done all on television and the media. Most of the work get no TV glory time.
But frankly few care in the US about who screamed louder about Agent Orange Major Bobby.
Veterans Today Editorial Comment:
“No Bobby if you respected anyone here you would not confuse posts here with your writing tangled in between.”
Brother Haase,
If I’ve been disrespectful to you or anyone on this post, I’m most apologetic that was not my intent, and if a reader does not appreciate the fact that I’m not getting paid to mind my “p’s” and “q’s,” and dot my i’s, why are you even reading (excuse me trying to read what I’m saying?).
“Another thing do not put Vietnam era vets in the same category as those that served in combat. They were not in the same war.”
I believe that I know what your saying, and frankly both of us knows that technically the VA does categorize us exactly as you wish. However, unless I misunderstand the tone you are using with that statement, using your logic then every Vietnam Era Veteran who did not serve in-country Vietnam or in combat per se should not be allowed to join Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA) right? They should form their own Vietnam Era Veterans of America (VEVA). Hum.
Anyway, that one statement quoted above is only going to serve to get Veterans Today a lot of internet hits from Vietnam Era Vets who tend to disagree with you, although I for one respectfully understand where you are coming from. Thus, even if I served in-country Vietnam but was not in combat (REMF) I’m in a different category of Vietnam Vet.
I did an article on just that subject and took a lot of heat from Vietnam Era Vets who misunderstood that just because I posted what the VA regulations on Vietnam vs. Vietnam Era Vet were that I endorsed those definitions. I was simply stating fact not an opinion.
The Definition of a Vietnam Era Veteran-July 28, 2009
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2009/07/28/the-definition-of-a-vietnam-era-veteran/
“Letting you know about Dean Philips when you Vietnam Veterans Against the War and even Bobby Mueller where getting national press time, Dean was getting his ass kicked in congress and giving major veterans organizations hell for not being supportive.”
Ok, here I want to hold out an olive branch to you, we need some help in getting Captain Dean Philips more credit than what the history books give him. I looked up Captain Dean Philips on the VVA Chapter 227 – Dean K. Philips Chapter, and what I found was disgusting.
“A former parachute drop zone at Ft. Meade, Maryland, is dedicated to the chapter’s namesake. The area is now part of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Patuxent Research Refuge – North Tract. In response to questions about who Captain Dean Phillips was, a park’s volunteer Internet search found the chapter’s website.”
I went on to read how this memorial to Captain Philips had been all but abandoned until the VVA chapter stepped in, hell the Park Ranger had no idea who Dean Philips was. Take this as constructive criticism, but unless I missed something how can a chapter have a namesake, but no detailed biography of Dean Philips accomplishments during the war and after. When one goes to the Dean K. Philips link on the chapter page all one gets is this controversy, what the chapter did to correct it, but nothing about WHO Captain Philips was?
VVA Chapter 227
http://www.vva227.org/dean.html
I’m not knocking the chapter whatsoever, I personally find what they did for Captain Philips most commendable, but to be honest with you in all the research I’ve done and being thrown at me on the Fight for Agent Orange recognition I’ve seen nothing on Captain Philips.
I’m not doubting what you are telling me, hell you’ve peaked my curiosity, I’ve checked best I can including the Congressional Quarterly but I’m human and can screw up as well as you can if not better.
Could you please provide our readers some links, even bibliography, heck even a biography would do on Captain Dean Philips, because I agree with you if he was a champion of Agent Orange he should be given just due and credit.
“When you Vietnam Veterans Against the War and even Bobby Mueller where getting national press time”
Archie, I was not part of VVAW back in the day, maybe I did not make that clear. I was still on active duty (well returned to active duty) along with Captain Dean Philips and several thousand other Vietnam Vets who instead of beating down the doors to get out of the military and now tout their military service during Vietnam.
That said, my gut feeling is that what you really take issue with is anyone mentioning VVAW in a positive light. BTW you did not respond to the fact that I pointed out many founding members of VVA were no shit active in VVAW and other splinter Vet groups opposed to the war?
When VVAW split into factions including yes a far left wing Communist faction if I may called Vietnam Veterans Against the War Anti-Imperialist (VVAW-AI) and moderate leaning VVAW members who wanted to broaden their scope, political clout, and membership by outreach to right of center Vets thus was born VVA under Bobby Mueller. BTW VVAW and VVAW-AI today as when this split in the Vietnam Veterans Movement occurred IS NOT the same group as VVAW.
Vietnam Veterans Against the War – 2010
http://www.vvaw.org/
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Anti-Imperialist – 2010
http://www.vvawai.org/
However, right-wing Vets and right-wing leaning Veterans Service Organizations have used this split and so-called infiltration by Marxist Vets (who’s to say they were or were not Vets) to paint a broad stroke demonizing any Veteran who questioned or even opposed the Vietnam War. The same political spin is place on anyone (Veteran or not) who questions let opposed today’s wars – WE are all leftists, heck even when VVA or IAVE questions (Lord knows ‘or political expediency’ they don’t oppose wars, just the simple act of QUESTIONING how the wars are being run either by a Democrat or Republican leads to trumped up charges they are LEFTISTS – bullshit.
But I detract, my apologies. My point is that I get the HINT that you do not want me a Retired Major talking about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) and that just ain’t going to happen. They played a significant role in the recognition of both PTSD and Agent Orange that I believe YOU so did Captain Dean Philips, and I for one as a fellow Retired Officer would like to learn more about Dean.
“While you were getting in shape to double dip Major Bobby, Bobby Mueller was working his ass off. I say that and I never been a fan of his.”
Now I accept that as about as respectful as you deserve with all due respect (snicker). I’m sure had he been alive Captain Dean Philips would be PROUD that any Vietnam Veteran would say that about any other Vietnam Veteran, nope I don’t think so Archie.
You also have no clue what double dipping is Archie, the rules against double dipping did not change until two years after I retired from the military – translation I (and everyone above Major) were not allowed to double dip or receive double pay until circa 1996 or so.
That said, I also DID NOT double dip, I took a leave of absence from the VA for extended military service, I may have some complaints about the VA system that I articulate on behalf of other people, even a few beefs myself but all in all the VA’s been good to me, because I know the VA system (wink). Point: the VA allowed employees to take and extended leave of absence in order to continue to serve their country after Vietnam.
BTW, Archie were you among the approximately us 380,356 of us who stayed or returned to active duty following Nam? Out of about 8,380,356 Veterans who served during the Vietnam Era (where ever) that means 8 million beat down the doors to get out of the military having been fed up with Vietnam, how they were treated when we came home, and so on as the story goes from all sides of the political spectrum (U.S. Census 2000 figures).
Point: I’m not knocking the fact that both Captain Philips and I were overrun not by the enemy but by our brothers and sisters beating down the doors to GET OUT OF THE MILITARY, because I understand why folks wanted OUT, and I commend what the precious few did to better life for other Veterans DID. So please do not belittle my military service. If you do, you are coming too close to Swift Boating, and one more time: SWIFT BOATING IN ANY SHAPE, FORM, OR STEALTH IS NOT ALLOWED ON VETERANS TODAY NEWS NETWORK – PERIOD NO EXCEPTIONS.
“You might not like it not many people (voters) care in the US whether veterans who are damaged by Agent Orange get any money. It might not be right but that is the way it is. Writing about it might get readers, and incite some anger. But it changes nothing.”
But it changes nothing, Archie if this is no shit how you feel about Agent Orange or talking about it then that tells me YOU do not want to talk about it, so why the hell are you HERE on this post?
Bobby Hanafin
I am not in the military. Gave that title call up a long time ago.
You will find nothing about him. Dean Philips. Because he was in the gutts of the government and VA. Doing real work!!! Now you know who he is!
He unlike the rest of the grand standing Vietnam veterans on television. One being a guy by the name of David Christian. You will find a lot about him because he was always given speeches claiming he was the most decorated Vietnam veteran. He even tried on Fox to promote himself an expert on terrorism after 9/11.
I as a Marine know medals are bull shit, and those that promote themselves or let themselves be promoted as heroes are anything but heroes.
Like I said the VA has changed,. It changed not because of press conferences or media grand standing. But because people worked on changing it, not from a podium, but from working their (((* ass off without glory.
Veterans Today Editorial Response:
“You will find nothing about him. Dean Philips. Because he was in the guts of the government and VA. Doing real work!!! Now you know who he is!”
Sorry Archie, but we can’t buy that. Here we do have a Captain Dean Philips who has a memorial dedicated to him at Fort Meade, Maryland that nobody took care of until a VVA chapter jumped into fix that disgrace. We have an Award named after him, and we have a VVA Chapter named after him, and you are going to convince us that there is nothing documented about him. COME ON NOW!
Captain Dean Philips did exists, we understand he was a Veterans advocate, why won’t you tell us more about him?
“Like I said the VA has changed,”
I throw out another olive branch agreeing with you on the VA changing, it had to, however far too many of our brothers and sisters outside the American Legion and VFW would argue otherwise.
Nope, I take that back, even the right-wing leaning VSOs are of the consensus that the VA Claims system is broken almost beyond repair regardless which politicians run the VA. You mention about the Old Guard VSOs controlling the VA during and shortly after the VA, and I for one know just how accurate your views are on that. However, Archie the undue control over the VA given to right-wing Nationalists was replace by whichever political party controlled the White House and/or Congress at any point in time. The WWII VSO control over the VA was replaced by partisan political control that swings for COST SAVINGS to VETERAN SAVING and back again.
That is why the collective WE have to talk about this. You and I both know that out of what 22 to 26 million American Veterans by U.S. Census estimates (accuracy questionable for obvious reasons) only a very small percentage of us are JOINERS. Hell, even VVA touts what over 50,000 individual members
46 state councils, 630 local chapters at least we do not embellish to saying our membership numbers in the millions by inflating the Auxiliary, and Sons of the Legion and what have you to appear to have more political clout than we actually do.
Veterans Today intend reaching out to those without ANY VOICE what so ever, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Veterans for Peace, Iraq Veterans Against the War, Military Families Speak Out, and God Star Families Against the War, to name but a few. In addition, we are reaching out to the other 20 million or so Veterans and their families who are not members of mainstream VSOs that Archie is our audience, for they feel that they have nowhere else to turn.
We sometime feel overwhelmed by the anger, frustration, and hopelessness among America’s Veterans, but not talking about their problems also IS NOT going to make them go away, and the TSUNAMI of younger Veterans has yet to hit our shores, but it will and I believe in our lifetime, and I assume you are older than I.
In fact, I take issue with VVA members to refer to us a Senior Citizens, fine the bulk of our membership maybe over the hill so to speak, but at 59 I will not be a Senior Citizen until between 62 and 65 (unless Social Security discriminates against a younger generation of Senior Citizens).
Heck I maybe a Senior Citizen, but I sure do not THINK like one, act like one, or feel like one, I’m young at heart, mind, and views. In that respect I’m optimistic, but I ain’t going to die from Agent Orange or PTSD, so I’m going to speak for those without a voice, and just like Dean Philips, my name will never be written in the history books. Ask me if I care.
Bobby Hanafin
Frankly speaking Archie, The Pandora’s box you talk about has never closed.
It will only get bigger and you know why?
Our children, our grandchildren, etc etc will be carrying the genetic changes forever….it doesn’t go away.
We Vietnam War veterans (who do u think that is ‘BOOTS ON THE GROUND, BROWN WATER, BLUE WATER, THEATER OF OPERATIONS, SOUTHEAST ASIA, VIETNAM WAR ERA, ETC ETC”..
Guess what is the same freaking dioxin..some as a matter of fact were exposed with far greater concentrations and more frequently..
It will never go away until justice is done. Period.
I will never stop until the freaking truth is told.
DO YOU WANT TO SEGREGATE VIETNAM WAR VETERANS AND WHO GETS WHAT?
I HOPE NOT BECAUSE IF U DO
YOU ARE NOT I REPEAT NO BROTHER ..GET ME?
Veterans Today Editorial Comment:
We wish to thank MSgt Foster for bringing the discussion back on FOCUS. That said, we must agree with Archie that OK, nobody wants to talk Agent Orange (AGAIN), because no body really cares. I also believe we are getting bogged down into who yelled loudest about Agent Orange back in the day, but I seriously would like to find out more about Captain Dean Philips, maybe do a dignified story on him. I believe if Captain Philips was the Agent Orange champion Archies says he was, and I do not doubt it, then we need to talk about Captain Dean Philips as part of the history of Agent Orange. It is a SHAME that I cannot Google Captain Philips name and come up with a decent background on him despite there being a Memorial Award dedicated to his name and a VVA Chapter named for him. Help Archie, we are on the same page with Dean Philips contributions battling Congress to get Agent Orange recognized. I know beyond a doubt that when Captain Philips did this he must have caught holy hell from far right-wing Veterans allied with the Chemical Companies.
However, as MSgt Foster points out, we must stay on target talking about Agent Orange, any sentiment that talking about it today some 30 or so years after the fact is meaningless, well Archie that is something WE at Veterans Today cannot live with based on what MSgt. Foster says, and we know to be true about genetic inheritance of the poison.
My wife and I were watching PBS this morning as the gent appointed to handle claims for the damage done by the BP Oil spill, the same dude who handled 911 payouts and claims settlements. When asked if this claims process will be LONG TERM and COSTLY, his response was focused not only on the environmental damage, but also potential genetic damage that this oil spill could create for animals, men, and women exposed. He said the payout for this Oil Spill being handled by our government today is going to last a VERY LONG TIME. We interpret that to mean decades (fraudulent claims and all).
How come the same passion is not shown by our government toward handling VA claims for our Veterans. Archie agree with you that a lot must be done in Congress, but if you or I like it or not it is the media coverage and grand standing, the squeaky wheel that get the grease.
We are not going to stop talking about Agent Orange, PTSD, Gulf War Illness, Depleted Uranium, or whatever else comes out of these current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. NOT GONNA HAPPEN, so if you do not want to talk about them, maybe you need to spend more time at military.com in their forums with the other former Veterans for Nixon. BTW, that was before my time, I voted for Jimmy Carter in my first ever interest in politics while I was in college (in Air Force ROTC), then I voted for Reagan, voted straight Republican until come 2000 when right-wing Vets for Nixon types brought down weak kneed John McCain. I was a strong McCain supporter who gagged at how McCain was a weak dick in responding to the Bush Swift – Boating. I vowed to never again vote Republican, and now I’m not even registered Democrat. I bring this up because of the Politics of Agent Orange.
Lastly, you even hit on the Politics of Agent Orange in many respects, especially when you talk about Captain Philips, if our readers could learn more about what Dean Philips actually did, it would go along way to telling the story of Agent Orange the unsung heroes.
Bobby Hanafin
ARCHIE, You know where you can stick your VIETNAM ERA veteran crap..drop the lingo bro..did you see anyone less willing to die for another VIETNAM WAR vet ? Alot of VIETNAM WAR VETERANS are just finding out what happened and are putting 2 and 2 together to find out all these years of illnesses and the hidden documents only now being released to tell the truth about AGENT ORANGE ….AUTOIMMUNE DISEASSE MCTD AND THE 400 DISEASES ASSOCIATED WITH THAT WITH ADMIRAL ZUMWALTS TESTIMONY AND THE IOM AGENT ORANGE COMMISSION VICE CHAIR TESTIFYING TO CONGRESS about AUTOIMMUNE DISEASE MCTD and now we are finding out from DR MARY PAXTON, the agent orange commission director and others about what really the dioxin is doing to us. How many times does someone have to die from agent orange diseases to be on a equal footing with anybody else that served in the freakin vietnam war..? give me a BREAK……IT’S ALL THE SAME SHIT ARCHIE..AND GUESS WHAT ARCHIE..there are some of us that served from Vietnam War INTO THE OEF OIF…YES THATS RIGHT FREAKIN 35 YRS and finding out the TRUTH ABOUT AGENT ORANGE ..WHO LIED? HMMM WHO LIED ARCHIE?
MSG Foster stop the military crap. Along with your crap Major Bobby!!!
This is about civilians who were in the military.
God I am sick of hearing about career military who for the most part had all their bills medical include payed for by uncle sugar. What I am talking about is this!!!
American combat veterans mostly grunts and those that supported grunts on the ground up front and personal with the enemy got out of the military suffered from agent orange, and many times without insurance paid for treatment out of their own pocket. Notice I said out of their own pocket.
Do I think the government is going to change this?
No because they have to give money to less deserving people.
Veterans Today Editorial Comment:
Archie,
We allow you your low opinion of lifers, it frankly was a widespread opinion among the thousands who got out.
That said, however, it tells me that you also have a very low opinion of our troops now serving in Iraq and Afghanistan (regardless if you or they agree with their wars or not).
Lastly, we cannot allow you to show further disrespect to Veterans who choose to make the military a career as you beat the door down getting out. I’d say off hand that you were in the service between maybe 66, 67 or so and got out during the early 1970s before the war ended.
At that young age and level of maturity, I know the feeling, you, nor I or any real Agent Orange or PTSD advocate knew diddly swat about either. However, you also sound like someone who blames the troops for serving and becoming lifers. You know nothing of either LeRoy Foster’s service or mine.
This piss poor attitude of looking down on lifer’s still infests most of the mainstream VSOs at chapter level.
I can’t speak for MSgt. Fosters experience, but as a Life Member of both VVA and the DAV, I attended one, no it may have been two or three local DAV meetings in Dayton (ironically Tom Nagle was/is Commander there).
Both myself and one other Military Retiree who served IN NAM or near NAM were about as unwelcome as our interaction right now Archie Bunker. Hell, if you are a retired officer forget about joining a local VSO chapter, you maybe welcome at National or State level where you take a paid position based on your resume or like me prefer to exists At Large, and that is why most if not all mainstream VSOs are going to go the way of the Grand Army of the Republic (Union Veterans of the Civil War) and Confederate Veterans (kept alive only by the Sons of Confederate Veterans).
Anyway, you get the last word in ABOVE, and let’s leave it at that.
All future posts will be moderated accordingly. We don’t expect any one who was not a lifer to put up with the lifer crap (as you so eloquently put it) no one asked you or told you to call me Major anything to do so would be beyond DUMB to unreasonable and unrealistic.
However, you have a track record via Google of being a troll.
BYE-BYE
Bobby Hanafin
The Mustang Major
That’s Mr. Hanafin to YOU and your kind.
Don’t call me Bobby only people I respect
and my friends call me Bobby, you ain’t
my friend, and you sure ain’t my
brother.
I honor all those who served in the military. Including you. But those on the ground those who were drafted those that left the military serve got screwed by our government. You sir worked the system and have two retirements. Good for you.
My concern is not about you. You seemed to do well. You sir Major Bobby have life time medical care for you and your wife. Tens of thousands who served face to face with the enemy and received nothing. I could give you litany and names of my comrades who died young alone, either on the battlefield, or alive and not service connected for PTSD agent Orange or both.
It’s these people I care about. The ones that are left in my opinion the ones who survived a lifetime of insults. A life time struggling with disabilities never applied for. These are the veterans I am concerned about.
Veterans Today Editorial Comment:
“You sir worked the system and have two retirements.”
Actually one needs to know and understand THE VA SYSTEM before they can as you say work it. That upfront is most likely because I was a REMF in the Army say no up front and close combat until ironically when I was in the Air Force, but that’s my business for making a bad decision during our illustrious Invasion of Panama to unseat Manuel Noriega. One does not brag about heroics, especially when one knows that what he did could have gotten others and himself killed instead of the crap beat out of us for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I did time with a Nike-Herc unit on Okinawa after Nam, I just wasn’t ready to go home yet. We ended up being used in both a Fire Fighting and Riot Control against the Okinawan’s protesting our used to Naha and Kadena AB to fly bombing missions out of to Vietnam. I was in the Army Air Defense at the time. We (like our brothers on Guam and elsewhere in the Pacific dealt with unexploded ordinance left over from WWII. This as we tried to put out fires set by protesters on ridges leading to our missile fuel storage areas. My dumb ass set off a phosphorous grenade while partying on an isolated Okinawan Beach. Quickly learned that phosphorous burns on water.
Archie if I had earned any medals worth bragging about, I’d be the first person to tell you it would have been because I did something dumb and lucked out.
“and have two retirements,” nope three.
“You seemed to do well. You sir Major Bobby have life time medical care for you and your wife.”
Why thank you Archie, I consider that a compliment since I went from a high school dropout Private to a rubber stamped Army GED that most colleges laughed at when I did decide to go to college. I had to attend night school in one of the roughest, blackest sections of Baltimore called North Avenue, and I’m a white dude. Once I got a University to stop laughing at my Army GED, I first attended the University of Maryland, Baltimore, County.
That is until I joined a Vietnam Veterans group that formed on campus to organize and protest not only health care, but also delay in our education benefits. Archie that too paid off. Skuttlebutt quickly spread throughout the Vet community on campus that YO, we could get a cheaper, better two year education in a Community College, so I transferred to Catonsville Community College to save money then transfer credits at two years. I’ve been taking advantage of educational opportunities ever since.
“You sir Major Bobby have life time medical care for you and your wife.”
No Archie military retirees (lifers) allowed themselves to be screwed too. Not me, because no military recruiter promised me free health care for life, nor did I care at 17 years old, or my early 20s when I went to work for the VA.
However, a whole generation of WWII, Korean War, and Vietnam War Vets (older than me, can’t say us) were told and it is documented that military recruiters promised them Free Health Care for Life and our government reneged. I marched in protest with some of these Vets circa 2002 or 2003, I know it was before the 2004 election, and these guys (and gals) mostly right-wing Republicans were protesting Bush II. It didn’t get them anywhere.
Archie, you are promoting one of the many myths about a military career – Free Health Care for Life, if I had such an outstanding program I sure as hell would see no reason to go anywhere near the Dayton VAMC today, and I go about once a month, sometimes not for medical or Mental Health appointments (wink).
Military Retirees Archie are MEANS TESTED just like any other Veterans. You should be familiar with how Vets are means tested and placed in categories (last time I checked running priority 1 to 8, correct me if I’m wrong) I strongly and passionately speak out on this every chance I get and on the VA campus. Since I’m 100% service-connected anyway, I can afford to do this:
When I was asked to fill out a VA Form noting how much money I made, and this was not for a poor man’s pension, I put in large bold letters, Uncle Sam sure as hell did not care when I enlisted in the Army in 1969 how much money I made, it ain’t none of his God Damn business now. From that day I became a thorn in the side of the Dayton VAMC.
Point: And you know this Archie, no American Veteran should be means tested to get access to benefits we’ve earned to do something that what now over 98% (and I’m being generous) of the American Sheeple cannot do, will not do, cannot relate to, and look down on.
Don’t get me wrong Archie I’m not knocking you or anyone else’s service, because you didn’t want to be a Lifer, heck as I said most of those kids my age around me had the same attitude toward Lifers as you do today. I had that attitude towards Lifers until I became one.
Nope, we pay co-pays for our Free Medical Care for Life, and we also pay annual premiums for our military socialized medical system. Grant you we get government subsidies to cover most of the overhead cost, I pay around $63.32
a month out of my retirement pay for TRICARE Dental Coverage not including the co-pays for dental work. Don’t really know why but that’s based on where we live.
TRICARE RETIREES DENTAL PROGRAM
http://www.trdp.org/enhanced/premium_regB.htm
For our Free Healthcare for Life you THINK we have, I pay $460/year for my family. Again not to mention the co-pays, because only a portion of medical bills are paid. We are constantly fighting the Pentagon and Congress to not raise premiums based on means testing or arbitrary increase (talking about around $1,500 or so a year. WE are not treated the same as Active Duty TRICARE that is almost free.
Is it any wonder that any Lifer in our right mind would take our kid, let alone someone else’s kid down to a military recruiter today, if we do we need to have our heads examined, I will not.
TRICARE PRIME
http://www.tricare.mil/mybenefit/home/overview/Plans/LearnAboutPlansAndCosts/TRICAREPrime?
Then when I turn 65 (in only six more years), I come under an even more complex TRICARE system called TRICARE FOR LIFE that I really prefer not thinking about until I’m well 64.
TRICARE FOR LIFERS.
http://www.tricare.mil/mybenefit/home/overview/Plans/LearnAboutPlansAndCosts/TRICAREForLife?
“I could give you litany and names of my comrades who died young alone, either on the battlefield, or alive and not service connected for PTSD agent Orange or both.”
I frankly and honestly cannot give you a litany of name, maybe two or three in fact who were combat Vets, one a medic in Vietnam all dead way before their time. Archie let me assure you the pain and hurt of losing a friend is not less emotional than it is losing a thousand friends only by degrees of sadness.
One thing I can tell you, if I meet you on the street and I am 59 and your are 59 or even 60 (the babies of the Vietnam Veterans movement), you know how I can tell when someone is lying about being in Vietnam or in combat, and it is not the thousand yard stare (or is that mile stare – whatever).
Nope, Archie if you had been in combat in Vietnam you would look 10 to 15 years older than me, even if we both were 59 or 60.
I can more than relate to what you are saying, so my apologies if belittling those who decided to stampede over me came across the wrong way.
Bobby Hanafin
Why We Fight For Your Freedom!
Recent news brings about a new struggle to the plight of our unsung Vietnam vets. Never to be honored, always to secretly be set aside or better said, just forgotten. I understand opening old wounds for most people, after a while, becomes an afterthought of just pissing and moaning or just get over it syndrome. But I find it very difficult to take when I see the results of the actions of some of our legislative representatives. The article that upsets me reads as follows:
Senator Jim Webb, a democrat from Virginia, chief architect of the pricey post 9\11 GI Bill education benefits for veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan war era, could become a new champion for tax payers against what he perceives as excess spending on military pay and new wave of Agent Orange claims.
Webb, a former navy secretary and decorated Vietnam War veteran, risked the anger of thousands of veterans from that war when he won senate approval of an amendment to block the Department of Veterans Affairs from paying new disability claims on three prominent diseases presumed linked to war time herbicide exposure.
For the entire story go to:
Hampton Roads Daily – Webb wins delay on new Agent Orange claims
http://articles.dailypress.com/2010-06-07/news/dp-nws-milupdate-0607-20100607_1_presumptive-diseases-disease-or-b-cell-leukemia-agent-orange-claims
The VA draft regulation published in March, projected that the cost for Agent Orange claims will jump by 13.6 billion in a year and 42.2 billion over 10 years. By comparison, the projected 10-year cost of new post 9\11 GI Bill benefits that Webb pushed into law is 52 billion.
You will find this article on the Daily Press column entitled “Webb Wins Delay on New Agent Orange Claims.”
Chicago Tribune: Webb wins delay on new Agent Orange claims
http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/dp-nws-milupdate-0607-20100607,0,6495911.column
Now, with respect to Senator Webb’s position,
I would like to make a few observations and give a couple of personal opinions that seem to plaque my internal person as my physiologist would say.
First observation, post 9\11- 52 billion no problem! Educational benefits for Iraq and Afghanistan warriors. The average Vietnam vet is 63 years of age and has waited 40 years to be considered ill from effect of Agent Orange.
Millions of dollars spent on research over this period of time, untold veterans, who have died already, many more on the edge or at the end of their lives. And now we need 60 more days to study the science that follows the Agent Orange story.
If you really think about it Vietnam vets are for the most part, going to be extinct in the next 10 years. Not only that, they will probably only be around for one more major election. So where would you put your money.
The second observation, Senator Webb is a highly decorated Vietnam Veteran and has a commendable service record to our country. If I were to ask him if he himself receives benefits from the VA, I wonder what his answer would be.
I am one of those veterans that came home proud to have served and never asked for nothing from the VA. My intentions were to work until I was dead or my employer didn’t need me anymore.
Health reasons changed that for me. I believe just like many of the other Vietnam Vets believe and know their lives have been shortened because of the ill effects of Agent Orange and the guilt of loss of life. The images of death that never fade away for the thousands of vets who tear up when they hear or see the news daily and know that a mom or dad has lost a daughter or son, it adds to that personal stress of saying to themselves it should have been me not him or her
The third observation, I find it ironic that we at a drop of the hat can send money to all most any other country who maybe in crisis, yet find it fiscally irresponsible to take care of a small portion of our American community who were willing to give it all so that others could obtain the American dream.
Take time to go to a VA hospital or clinic and observe the veterans as they come in and go out. Then ask yourself, does the affects of war change the outcome of individuals lives?
After you read this consider what has been written. Weight the cost to the tax payer then subtract the cost to the veteran and if you believe it only a fair exchange call you representatives and make a plea to support the Vietnam vets and ask Senator Webb to stand down on this opportunity an take care of these men and women.
Calls to make:
Senator Voinouich 202-224-3353
Senator Brown 202-224-2315
US Representative Latta 419-354-8700
US Representative Jordon 419-423-3210
Donald Henley of Findlay Ohio
3323 Spring Lake Dr.
Findlay, OH 45840
Veterans Today Editorial Comment:
Very balanced and well though out response. We sent you an email requesting links to your media coverage mentioned, but forget it we found them.
That said, you cut and paste most of Tom Philpott’s article from the Hampton Roads Daily Press without his or their copyright permission. We can’t allow folks to do that, so we shorted your comment to allow your points and added the links for reinforcing your points.
Thanks Brother Henley, especially the Call to Action to Stop Congress from supporting Senator Webb’s position. If Congress is concerned about the COST OF WAR, then the place to cut is the Defense Budget NOT the Veterans Budget, and the trees the $$$ fall from are not the same.
Bobby Hanafin
The Mustang Major
“Is Congress and the President waiting for an Army to Die”? In my opinion, the answer is yes.
On January 3, 2010, ” 60 Minutes ” did a segment titled “Deny and Hope That They Die.”
http://www.vawatchdog.org/10/nf10/nfjan10/nf010410-4.htm
http://www.vawatchdog.org/10/nf10/nfjan10/nf010410-5.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/01/60minutes/main6045148.shtml
It exposed the Department of Veterans Affairs horrible treatment of veterans.
My claim is now 14 years and nine months. I have written to the President many times requesting positive intervention on my behalf. The President has not responded.
He has reneged on the many promises he made to veterans when he campaigned and does so to this day.
Veterans Today Editorial Comment:
Brother Ford,
We have added links to your comments about 60 Minutes and Why the VA Frustrates Veterans to reinforce your point.
However, “My claim is now 14 years and nine months. I have written to the President many times requesting positive intervention on my behalf. The President has not responded.”
First if your claim is over 14 years old, how many Presidents have you written to?
Point: If you had written to every President, regardless of party, from the date of your first submission 14 years ago, until today the response would most likely have been THE SAME.
That said, if your claim is taking THAT LONG, or is has taken that long to submit a series of claims or to do battle with the appeal process, then at this point you need to contact one of your Senators (whichever you prefer).
Advice, if you are a registered voter, select the Senator from the same party you are registered to vote for come November 2010. If both are not from the party your are registered to vote with, then either you are really screwed or select your Congressman (woman). However, if you are not registered to vote, you are seriously screwed.
Seriously, filing claims with the VA system, and you are not satisfied with the outcome leads Veterans down two long and winding roads, one is legal, and the other is political in nature. Oh, and don’t forget the sponsorship of a Veterans Service Organization (VSO) recognized by the VA (another political road map).
Best Advice believe it or not is in this order:
1. Complain to Secretary of Veterans Affairs about how long it is taking to resolve your claim.
2. At the same time complain to the VA Office of Inspector General, heck you can do this over the phone or via email on their hot line.
3. It pays to have political clout, even a little bit, of sending your complaint to said Senator mentioned above with instructions that your Senator’s staff member (most likely a GS-5 that’s like a butter bar Lieutenant or maybe E5) ensure your complaint goes to both the VA Secretary and OIG. This creates the nightmare that the VA has to response to your Senator and you.
4. If you are member of a VSO, by all means get their sponsorship as mentioned above, but ensure they understand the hoops you are going through yourself, so why do you need the VSO?
Bottom line: The President (and not only Obama) is not going to have anyone on his staff outside of the Secretary of Veterans Affairs look at any one Veterans’ complaint, not even me.Just ain’t gonna happen, unrealistic.
Besides this President has two wars, and an oil spill to worry about, just taking time to read our complaints about the VA are not urgent concerns.
Oh, BTW when is the next Veterans observance? Then you will get some lip service from politicians with VSOs as the backdrop.
Bobby Hanafin
The Mustang Major
Lets just face the true facts about what is behind the way Jim Webb thinks about Viet Nam Veterans….
First off, What was his MOS anyway??? Clerk/typist????
(Edited due to Swift Boating. Major Hanafin)
Secondly, The main reason he’s so against the DVA giving the Veterans that earned the Benefits and have the health problems because of it, is because he and his ———- buddy from Hawaii, can’t line their pockets from the increases.
(Edited out racial/ethnic slur)
And Third, Like has been stated in Mr. Henley’s Comment, we Vietnam Veterans are a dieing breed, and will be spit upon until we are completely gone…(Edited out that another Veteran would spit on us – too close to Swift Boating).
If Webb is looking to his future in politics and is anti-veterans now, what is in store for the future of the troops that are fighting the two illegal wars we are currently in now..
Will close down VA Hospitals and The VA as a whole, and spit on those Veterans too???? [edited out slanderous remarks about another Veteran - once again too close to Swift Boating]
JIM WEBB HAS TO GO!!!!!!!!!!
Veterans Today Editorial Comment
First off, Bobby, we will not allow Swift Boating on Veterans Today News Network, we are a class act.
ONE MORE TIME – NO SWIFT BOATING ALLOWED.
We may or may not have problems with Senator Webb, the Veterans Service Organizations, and so on, but we DO NOT put down anyone’s service unless of course they fire the first shot at someone on our Board or writing staff them we watch each others back.
We have no problem with anyone passionately attacking what Senator Webb or any politician does, but not his/her military record.
ONE MORE TIME – NO SWIFT BOATING ALLOWED – UNLESS OF COURSE THEY SERVED IN THE NATIONAL GUARD DURING VIETNAM, THEN WE MIGHT MAKE AN EXCEPTION.
BTW I was a Clerk/typist while assigned to a combat unit in Nam (REMF) don’t mean a God damn thin. I was an intelligence specialist by trade as an MI officer, and I served in several black box projects run by the Air Force like the U2 and SR-71, I went on several joint military exercises with the South Korean Air Force and Army called Team Spirit along the DMZ, but I went as combat support, point is that I could of gotten killed just as well as anyone. Don’t mean a thin.
Point is that the American people, government, and everyone else who shit and spit on us when we came home from where ever, THEY could care less if we came back from Nam, Korea, Europe, Guam, Okinawa, Hawaii, or spent our entire tour during Vietnam in CONUS. We were all spit on alike Bro, and don’t you ever forget that.
All this that i read and all that i been through and witnessed in my life.
Yes I’m a dying breed. the Vietnam veteran.
The agent orange test.
We were sent by our country to fight and save the American dream.
When people like this Webb or anyone like him questions how the Vietnam veterans is physically and mentally, he has made himself judge and jury and any other political games they want to play.
Oh yes we will all die in time. sooner rather than later, because of a country that has continue to deny the medical care and testing necessary to give the Vietnam veteran a full lifetime, the compensation for the ailments they suffered.
However, I warn all them political bigots and grandstand phonies, we just may be a lot more dangerous once we are dead, also as your armies dwindle, then what will you have to say?
What will you do?
a disabled Vietnam veteran
Veterans Today Editorial Comment:
Brother Contarino Sr.
Assuming you mean a drop in military enlistments also [as your armies dwindle] due to falling birthrates in the United States combined with other factors such as how young people view older Veterans being treated by the government trying to recruit them, there may be more in what you are saying than you can even imagine.
Bobby Hanafin
The Mustang Major
Major Bobby, I love the picture with the article. I think I’m going to piss all of them off by outliving them — I might even go for age 135. That’ll fix ‘em.
I’ll post more later.
Tom the Texas Weed.
Master Sergent Foster thank you for listening to me along with other victims of Agent Orange. I am sorry I feel the need to be cynical. But I have been at the door of veterans issues for a long time. One of the things bothering me is this. People who proclaim on the media’s soap box loudly supporting or not supporting veterans issue means nothing.
Over the yeas I have heard a lot of grandiose statements coming from people who like to be public about what veterans need. The bottom line is this. American taxpayers will end up paying for farm subsidies, or corporate tax breaks before they will pay one cent for the damage the military did to veterans using agent orange.
Do I like this? No but I have gotten used to this over the years.
Hmmmm, interesting, but derailing comments, well away from the subject of discussion, Agent Orange exposure. Debating the origins of the VVA and VVAW is an interesting historical discussion, but not useful to today’s deadly debate on Agent Orange. It seems Mr. Archie Haase has a chip on his shoulder about those of us who decided to continue our military careers. Perhaps he had a very bad experience when he was in the military, or perhaps he was always in trouble then? I really don’t care, but he clearly has an axe to grind against those of us who have filed claims with the VA for our AO exposure.
Does he know that many of us who retired from the military gives up dollar for dollar in retirement payments for our VA compensation, if we have less than a 50% disability rating? All that does is make those few dollars tax free income, and we are hardly getting rich of the government for that, it reduces my annual tax burdon by less than $1000 per year.
His comments are clearly political in nature, wanting to drive a wedge between those who were “in combat” against thise who weren’t. It takes at least 8 troops to support each one pulling a trigger. We were all at war, not just those “grunts” in the jungles in SEA. Even though Guam was not the front line, it was in the war, no less than any other place. Does he know how many people it takes to prepare just one B-52 from Guam to drop a string of bombs on the bad guys trying to kill him? It takes hundreds.
The Vietnam War was not about the troops, or those troops who supported them. But it was about everyone facing some varying level of danger and threat to them personnally. Some of that danger just took 30-40 years to manifest. A 7.62 mm bullet fired from an AK-47 by a bad guy is an immediate threat, but that one threat is over in less than the blink of an eye. It is over until the trigger on that AK-47 is pulled again. AO is a much different type of threat, and it was used as a weapon in SEA, as well as “normal weed control” elsewhere. The threat from AO usually takes decades to develope, and it only begins with the cancers, heart problems, and other life threatening illnesses and diseases. That 7.62 mm bullet is gone once it reaches its maximum range and falls to the ground, hits a tree, rock, or some other unintended thing, or hits its target. That target either is badly wounded, or worse, dead. Not so with AO. Just as it is intended to kill plant life, this shit will kill you, period. The difference between the 7.62 mm and AO, with its dioxin, is the bullet just kills you at that time. AO can kill you, your children, grandchildren, and maybe even your great grandchildren. Even if it doesn’t, you and they will suffer from disease for years for you, and their entire life for your future generations.
Guam has been contaminated with herbicides, pesticides, and only God knows what else since the WWII Battle of Guam in 1944. There were some 5,000 US Marines and other US troops killed on Guam, and some 15,000 Imperial Japanese Army and Navy troops, as well as more than 1,000 Chamorro. All of those dead bodies could not be taken care of fast enough. Japanese troops were holed up on Guam, shooting at American troops for years. The last Japanese Soldier finally gave up in 1973, he had been shooting at B-52s and KC-135s from his jungle hide-out. But the dead from the battle in 1944 were sprayed with pesticides and other chemicals before their rotting bodies could be fully recovered and buried.
http://www.bluewaternavy.org/guam/vanletter.htm
Mr. Haase has an opinion, and a voice. He is entitled to his opinions. But opinions are based on some type of motivation. I will not question his motivation, but others will. I will just say I strongly disagree with his opinion. He may have been in Vietnam, he may have been a Marine combat troop, he may have even been sprayed with AO, or walked through some jungle shortly after it was sprayed. But his statements leads me to believe he had a troubled time in the Marines, and not just in combat. I hope I am wrong.
Veterans Today Editorial Comment:
Thank you also MSgt Jackson for bring the discussion back on target AGENT ORANGE today. However, I must say that the debate over VVAW and VVA origins and such is more than a historical narrative, because history of those origins are repeating themselves today as younger Vets form their own Veterans Service Organizations to fill needs that they feel cannot be trusted to the mainstream VSOs. Does that mean no young Iraq or Afghanistan Vet will never join the American Legion, or VFW, heck they cannot join Vietnam Veterans of American (VVA) unless our by-laws change, but then it would no longer be Vietnam Veterans of America. MSgt. Jackson it is exactly this DISUNITY that allows the Pentagon, the VA, Congress, and the White House to walk all over us be it PTSD, Agent Orange, Gulf War Illness, Deplete Uranium, or Lord only knows what Iraq or Afghanistan crud our troops will bring home to genetically alter their bodies for generations to come.
Regardless, thanks again for putting the train back on the track.
Lastly, I believe that there are a lot of misconceptions about how military veterans view Veterans who did not decide to become Lifers (no offense intended) and how Vets who served one, two, or three hitches view Lifers – MISUNDERSTANDINGS.
Case in Point when I went to work for the Justice Department before my retirement from the Department of the Navy, I ran into a female co-worker who looked at me one day and said, “Bobby, you are nothing like Major Dad on TV.” Blank stare!!!
Point: We need to learn a lot more about one another, set aside differences that somehow divide us (a gap BTW that politicians are quick to exploit who have NEVER served, their children, grand-children, and great grand-children are destined never to serve. If the collective we stop talking about Agent Orange that would make those who refused to serve in Congress and the White House more than content for us to remain SILENT.
Bobby Hanafin
Yea I have a chip on my shoulder. The chip is all about those discharged from the military without benefits. Those with gunshot wounds. Those with shrapnel wounds. Those fired from their jobs because of PTSD or even agent orange related ailments.
I have a friend who worked for the post office who found out he had PTSD they found a reason to fire him and then got a 100 meter restraining order against him. He did nothing that could be considered a threat. This is all about how the media portrayed Vietnam combat veterans Bobby. You see no Vietnam era vet has had to deal with this.
Most of these combat vets never asked for a dime. But you Bobby and those like you keep asking for more and more.
The real heroes of my war never made the military part of their life, but it kept biting their ass in bad dreams.
When they went to the old Veterans Administration it was full of wannabe WW 2 warriors who made it a career.
You like to talk of your support for Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Hell I was and am against the Vietnam war. Well this media generated group Vietnam Veterans Against the war Major Bobby in my opinion is just another veteran group that kept the crazy Vietnam veteran image alive.
As for Vietnam Veterans Against the War it never made a positive ( notice I said positive) impact on veterans agent orange or any other pertinent veteran issue.
All the work getting help was within the government (mostly Vietnam veterans) by people who cared. It just reinforced the negative image.