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SEAL Team Six Story Unfolding
A National Guard Chinook with a Full Load of Seals and Special Ops?
by Jim W. Dean, VT editor
Special Operations - Boeing - MH-47E Chinook
Gordon Duff’s piece Saturday afternoon has run up over 61,000 reads plus whatever the blogger traffic was. We put it out quickly because losing this many SEALS in a one mission crash seemed impossible with the ops procedures for moving these highly trained teams around.
The comment section was very active and generally most all agreed that an a RPG shot bringing down a SEAL Chinook with a huge team aboard staggered the imagination.
SEAL package insertions and egress are where they are most vulnerable. They have very special transport to protect them from small arms.
The story of their going to the rescue of a pinned down unit…a SEAL insertion would most likely not be going into a landing zone blind as to enemy fire risk. Protecting the landing spot is like….ahhhh….very important !!!
Some VT associates have, for many years, flown “black ops,” including SEAL teams.
Military death notices were going out today (August 8th) and we saw and heard some of the first sad family interviews. And a special one was a National Guardsman, Sgt. Patrick Hamburger, a Chinook crew chief only in Afghanistan for a few days. So it appears we might have a breach of standard operating procedure where a huge team was put into a National Guard Chinook to go in. No word yet on where the Seals SPECOPS Chinooks were. But I suspect we will not have to wait long.
Sgt. Patrick Hamburger and Daughter
I hope they fare better than my mother when she became a 16 year old WWII widow. Her newlywed husband got blown to bits with 579 others on the SS Paul Hamilton, April 20th, 1944.
It seems the brass had been packing troops onto ammo ships and they took an aerial torpedo with 7000 tons of explosives aboard. The details were classified for 50 years. I pray that these families fare better.
Our thanks to Ann Barnhardt for passing the along the personal source news below. We still had no Pentagon video today, but the BBC got a phone interview with an eye witness who says he watched it all from his porch. That is a strange thing to be doing in a fire fight as folks tend to shoot first and ask questions later.
This is an updated CBS news video and some families getting through their horrible Sunday.
Tips from Afghanistan …from Ann Barnhardt
National Guard Chinook
I received a tip from a soldier stationed with an aviation brigade out of Jalalabad overnight.
“Almost immediately, after news of the crash began to spread, we were placed in an internet and phone blackout. This means communication with family, friends and “others” back home, in real time, is prevented until further notice.
However, there are also chinook pilots, crews and mechanics assigned here who were privy to the details of the crash almost immediately.
One of confirmed details they have been discussing is that the chinook shot down belonged to a National Guard unit. Which is causing people to whisper in astonishment,
“why were some of the most elite of America’s military, in such large numbers, tooling around on a National Guard aircraft? Also, those around me are wondering why such a large number (extremely unconventional for Seals, Green Berets, etc) of them riding in a single aircraft instead of being spread out into numerous aircraft.”
The Famous Patch
Without question, I mean no disrespect to the pilots and crew of the National Guard aircraft, but the fact is that it’s very “strange” that Seals would be conducting an actual mission, with such large numbers, in such a basic aircraft. …Especially, given the fact that there were special operation chinooks easily available and sitting idle when this tragedy took place.”
I am not a journalist. I have no means of checking this. But SOMEONE needs to investigate if in fact the SEALS were on a National Guard helo, if there were SPECOPS Chinooks available and idle, and what the difference in armament is between Guard Chinooks and SPECOPS Chinooks.
This potential difference in armament is HUGE and could account for the possibility of the Chinook being shot down by an RPG, if that is what happened.
MH-47G Chinook - rollout ceremony 6 May 2007
That tells us that the SPECOPS Chinooks are extremely resilient and have high combat survivability. The SPECOPS Chinooks are like a heavily armored Brinks truck.
A standard National Guard Chinook would be analogous to a FedEx truck by comparison. You never pack 25 SEALs into one helo as a point of dispersion protocol, as stated by a reader below.
“I have been told that a MINIMUM of three helos would normally be used for a group of that size. And IF they were indeed in a standard National Guard Chinook and not a SPECOPS Chinook, that would be like rolling out in a FedEx truck with your extremely precious cargo.”
Every human being is infinitely precious, but we can all agree that from a battlefield standpoint, SEALs are “tactically precious.”
UPDATE 2: From a reader:
Ann,
You are on to something here. I was in the 160th 1982- 1985 and I can tell you that the reason the aviation wing was created was so special ops would never again have to fly missions with anyone other than their own pilots and birds.
UPDATE 3: From a reader:
U.S. Army Chinook - Interior
Ann, I’m sure you’re getting a lot of notes on the Chinook debacle. I’m retired USAF familiar with how the system works when it comes to the questions asked by your Jalalabad contact. First, look to the Command Authority.
Dispersion protocols are almost never broken except on direct order up the chain high enough that nobody could question or refuse the order without jeopardizing their career.
Second, ‘who benefits’? Follow the trail of beneficiaries to the incident. Tactically, intell had to be passed to the shooters as to the timetable.
I’m willing to bet that there were several RPG’s (if not Stinger’s – remember, we provided quite a few and never kept a record during the Soviet incursion into Afghanistan) involved. Then, once fired, the shooters had to egress unseen to fight another day.
Many people I know, including some recently back from that area say this stinks to high Heaven, as you do.
Editors Note: We seem to be in the fog of war on what kinds of helicopters these teams use and when. Some checking around has turned up SEALS on Army Chinooks. Many factors may come into play as to multiple helos, day or night operation. Below is a famous tragic battle of a Ranger rescue attempt of a shot down SEAL chopper team and found their Chinook taken down with an RPG and bullets going through it like butter.
Related Posts:
Short URL: http://www.veteranstoday.com/?p=129111
Posted by Jim W. Dean on Aug 7 2011, With 0 Reads, Filed under 9/11, AfPak, Editor, WarZone. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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it’s another phony war where our boys have been sent in to do the zionists in londons fighting, pretending there’s a war on terror. These guys are so brainwashed. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were actors on this show in the interviews. Our military, the president and congress and judges work for the rothschilds rockefeller, london tel aviv kabal. If you don’t know that you’re stupid. Our mid officers better take the troops and do something g. washington would do. the constitution and our gov. was stolen by the british gov the other day when they voted for super congress…that makes obama a dictator. Hell he isn’t even legal. stop being stupid when they say birthers you cower down and say,…”ya, you dang birther, duh uhhhuh.” Come on. Wake up. Our country has been stolen by the neocons/cfr who are flunkies of the Rothschilds to break us all financially, when the paper money goes poof. All will be flat broke….except them because our congress and pres allow the FED, the rothschilds to print money out of thin air and buy up all the positions of power and profitable industries that get gov contracts. it’s why we spent more in 2 years than 235 years. They are doing it to make us debt slaves…we already are you fools. What do you call working 5 months out of the year, just for taxes. It goes to the rothschilds..look it up.
Sorry, This is the slideshow link in the above post.
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/navy-seals-killed-in-helicopter-crash-1313105950-slideshow/undated-image-provided-u-navy-shows-chief-petty-photo-224105325.html#crsl=%252Fphotos%252Fnavy-seals-killed-in-helicopter-crash-1313105950-slideshow%252Fundated-image-provided-u-navy-shows-special-warfare-photo-213539129.html
Just remember, these guys aren’t heroes. According to Janet Napolitano and DHS these guys, including all vets, are potential domestic terrorists and homegrown threats. That’s probably why they had to be taken out.
I wonder who gave the order? Obama? Napolitano? Nuttinyahoo?
Here are some relevant links. First one is “US bars media from covering return of 30 dead soldiers killed in Afganistan”
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-08-09/us/29868378_1_media-coverage-service-members-bars-media
Listen to this big load of bs.
“Pentagon spokesman Marine Col David Lapan told reporters during an off camera briefing.The International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan said the CH-47 Chinook helicopter was reportedly shot down by an insurgent rocket-propelled grenade while transporting the US service members and Afghan commandos to the scene of an engagement between ISAF and insurgent forces.As a result of the attack, the helicopter exploded in midair, killing everyone on board.”Due to the catastrophic nature of the crash, the remains of our fallen service members will be returned to the US via Dover AFB in unidentified status, until they can be positively identified by the Armed Forces Mortuary Affairs Office at Dover,” another Pentagon spokesman, Navy Capt Jane Campbell said in a statement later.”Because the remains are unidentified at this point, next-of-kin are not in a position to grant approval for media access to the dignified transfer,” he said.Therefore, in accordance with the policy of the Department of Defence, no media coverage of the arrival and dignified transfer is permitted,”
In other words, because there were “no identifiable remains” the media had to be banned. Does that make any sense? No it doesn’t, these creeps aren’t even good liars.
This link is “chief of the secretive US special operations command lobbied against the release of names of American commandos killed in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.”
Why were they opposed to the release of names?
“There were concerns expressed by the SOCOM (US Special Operations Command) commander about the safety of the members of the unit and their families and the families of the fallen,” a senior military officer told AFP.”
This kind of statement shows how desperate they are to hide the truth. As if the Taliban or Al Qaeda–take your pick–are going to target little Jimmy in the schoolyard with a sniper rifle. The only danger the families are in is if they know too much but don’t know enough to KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT!
http://news.yahoo.com/us-officers-oppose-releasing-names-dead-troops-224832007.html
Here is a slideshow from yahoo with their pictures, names, rank, and hometown.
I think we’re going to be seeing a lot more special forces killed in large numbers and under strange circumstances.
Maybe there should be more events like this seal team 6 assassinations .the US military are nothing but Tools today . They don’t fight for our long gone republic.They fight for the longest monarchy in history who’s aim is to rule the planet. Our US Constitution has been voided long ago and we operate by executive orders
and wars powers emergency act..The fact is you don’t know who your enemy is .Who can stand against the Beast of Revelations ? There is but One and he says to you /all of us if you are not with me you are against me.Who will stand with Him ? He says to us today come out of her Babylon and be my people and I will be your GOD.JESUS is coming and when he comes know this he comes with all his Angels and their numbers are in the billions .an Angel can smite 10,000 men and stand alone.However many of the wicked will die because of his brightness.many will call me a crazy religious fanatical today but tomorrow I will weep for you and in the end I will walk in your dust and ashes because that is what Jesus says I will do.Here is your enemy Satan and he rules through his demons through secret societies by the order of the Jesuits for the Roman Catholic Church otherwise known as the Papacy.IF you love him keep his commandments and remember to obey the fourth commandment ad rest on the 7th day and not the 1st.
oh god…more god crap
hilarious
As a vet myself, one who flew, by helicopter, many, many air assault training missions, this is very disturbing, but likely true. Because a Chinook is a loud, slow, cargo helicopter, which I flew on only once, because we were transporting vehicles behind the lines.
they(seals)are spooks———-my hubbie said they didnt die,,its all a cover.
MY HUBBIE WAS ONE OF THOSE WHO GOT OBL,,,HE IS HERE WITH ME,NOT DEAD!
Your hubbie is SF, assigned to Afgh in 2001?
Bin Laden died then…as a CIA agent.
By got..you mean recovered the body of someone who died of kidney disease?
g
Pentagon Changes It’s Story on death of SEAL Team 6, Number of SEALs Killed Changes From 22 To 17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzgxLZGB2k8
This is one of the BIG problems with telling lies. You keep forgetting how you told the original lie, so you try and make up for that by ‘retelling’ the lie in a slightly different narrative.
Multiply that by this FALSE FLAG taking place half-way across the planet, the different time zones and various media outlets that your spokes-people will be talking to and that little LIE becomes a HUGE problem.
We know we are in ‘deep shit’ when our own leaders will murder the most effective fighting units in our military. I shouldn’t be surprised but this is shocking. We have a duty to expose this madness. My condolences to their families. We have got to get to the bottom of this or no one is safe, anywhere.
“Obama Pays Respect to Copter-Crash Victims:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/9/white-house-cancels-obama-speech-press-briefing/
“Commandos Criticize Call for SEALS”:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/aug/9/commandos-criticize-call-for-seals/
Those old enough will remember the USSR and Communist China referring to the USA as the ‘Great Satan.’
That was good for a laugh, since I just knew back then we were the ‘guys in the white hats,’ riding to the rescue like a scene out of some John Wayne movie.
Now, we or our out of control, corrupted and hijacked government has become the ‘Great Satan.’
Greg, that happened a long time ago…….
The skinny I’m getting is that members of ST6 were getting ready to pull a Pat Tillman over the fake binLaden raid, but a Pat Tillman was pulled on them. Now there are no pictures, no body and no witnesses. But it’s said that certain family members were made aware as insurance in case anything happened to the team. This is why it’s important they speak out, otherwise they will start meeting with accidents.
It’s 0330 here in Phoenix,Az. and World News Now just did bit on the lives lost in the chopper and read off names with pictures of all that were lost. I am really pissed and don’t know how I can make a difference other than passing on the info I get from VTN. Phoenix doesn’t like this cause every time in the last couple of days that I attempt to leave a comment in my own words on how I feel I get cut off for one reason or another and it ONLY happens on VTN usually between the hours of 0300-0400 when I can do this. Even this entry was cut short by an update that I have set for 0600 not 0330! I’m pissing someone off to the point that they pull my plug when they can and only because I pass on the truth! ( FB must really love me) they’ve dropped me several times. I’m very sad over what had happened and share the beliefs of many on VTN. Back in 74 I was aircrew on a HH-46 at NAVSIG and understand some of the capabilities of that type of aircraft. I know they were not in a 46 but still, they were the same and used for the same jobs. I think Fedx truck is a step up! They count on everyone being cognative deficiant (excuse my spelling). but they also know there will be veterans out there who have beeen there and know the story but the numbers will be small so we are collateral damage! I will persist on getting out as much info as I can gather and then let the reader make their own decisions so they can keep pulling my plug and I’ll keep rebooting. my thoughts and prayers go out to the families of these hero’s.
What’s next in this tragic story? Pulling off a False Flag On VETERAN’S DAY against the USS Carl Vinson in San Diego, the ship that was allegedly used to bury a BL look-alike at sea?
The U.S. aircraft carrier that launched the first attacks against al Qaida and the Taliban after the September 11, 2001, terror attacks on the United States will be the site of another first, as it hosts the opening game of the 2011 NCAA college basketball season.
The deal calls for the Michigan State Spartans to play the University of North Carolina Tar Heels on Veterans Day, November 11, on the top deck of the carrier at the U.S. Naval Base in San Diego. Former UNC star Michael Jordan and former MSU star Earvin “Magic” Johnson are the honorary captains for the game.
Another issue is security. The game will attract about 7,000 fans to the nuclear-powered carrier, one of the Navy’s most important assets. Getting them onto a secure Navy base and then on board the vessel will take a significant security effort.
http://www.wlky.com/r/28640754/detail.html
I can already see the dual-citizens dancing on the beach while the palm trees sway…….
The Bastards in the Federal Government want to keep these wars going. all the politicians are getting rich along with the Militaty Contractors. a democracy that never was. sacrifice our beloved Military for Oil and Natural Resources. ( America has to occupy countries all over the world. IMPERIALISTIC GOVERNMENT.)this is the only way the coward’s in our government can survive.
has anyone read Paul Craig Roberts piece, here http://bit.ly/ntJR0x regarding a Pakistani witness who said there was a helicopter crash during the so called OBL raid and everyone onboard died? any info would be greatly appreciated
Jack, It’s been posted on Veterans Today, and Gordon has the material in his Breaking News piece, now at 54,000 reads….at 3:18, August 10th.
“No One Is Safe Under the Espionage Act of 1917″, by Wendy McElroy on The Future of Freedom Foundation website:
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd1104d.asp
Except for???????????
“Ray McGovern: They Died in Vain; Deal With It”:
http://october2011.org/blogs/dennis-trainor-jr/ray-mcgovern-they-died-vain-deal-it
It looks like some honest, brave SEALS were about to come forward on the Osama Bin Laden murder hoax. They probably hated the lying, filthy US/Israeli govt. and media that named them as the FAKE attack participants and were about to SPILL THE BEANS.
I agree. When will these special troops wake up and fight for america and expose all the lies. The US is depending on seals to set things right in america.
Did they finally manage to kill off all of those SEAL team members that killed some Pakistani patsy back in May?
This is the Pat Tillman murder and cover-up all over again.
Remember the story a few weeks back ‘leaked’ to the MSM that the Taliban had shoulder fired SAM’s?
Convenient timing.
@ Greg
hmm and they transport a bunch of the best of their best in Chinooks..here we come, low and slow on a suicide mission… ridiculous!!
Greg
If they killed pat tillman, and they did kill pat tillman, they murdered the seals.
proving otherwise is not going to work, not anymore
g
g, sounds good to me!
The perps must be caught “Red Handed” in order to pop the lid from that ‘box’
I am not an expert on the technical aspects on military hardware so, cannot but wonder on this. BUT I have always maintained and stated when I write to the White House comments, as Obama urges all to do, that we cannot allow a band of guerrillas confront our forces on an equal basis because they follow different rules and values. Therefore, we should respond to their attack with the ferocity they attacked that Copter probably in revenge for Bin Laden.
We should hit them so hard and in such unexpected way, the result of their attack would be too costly and not worthwhile for them. The same for leaving there with a message “if we see any terrorist camp construction we will send in our big bombs and blow the whole area to bits.
In a way the Cold War worked well. We might want to think about it.
“…a band of guerillas…”, Erica, are you sure? More like a band of bandits…
Were are the top brass who sent these Seals out. no one is speaking. whats going on here. like was said before a CH-47 on a mission, with no Gun Ship Support? someting sounds funney. ( IN Vietnam we had the Jolley Green Giant with all kinds of fire power. and it was slow. ) I smell a Rat. my heart goes out for all who died. may they rest in peace.
Scott
Where are the “Free and the Brave” now????
Do you know????
@ Jon Jon, “what’s happening in Afghanistan,” the emphasis and preoccupation with details of “The Deaths of Seal Team Six, ” Veteran’s Affairs and problems, are just tips of a much larger and threatening iceberg drifting in from the desert toward Bethlehem, waiting to be born.
After reading a comment re. the BBC documentary The Life of Muhammad, on the http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/08/08/congresswomen-urge-federal-funding-for-homecare-of-shoah-survivors-in-us/comment-page-1/#comments
thread, I went back and read some more of Nordeen’s Muhammad… the Jews have not changed an iota in 1400 years nor in the 1400 years preceding Madinah.
I think we ought to see more “power” words like “subversive,” “subversion,” “subterfuge,” and “surreptitious” used in conjunction with descriptions of what is happening in and by Israel. Sibilance carries sinister sounds as well as sense.
Thank you Debbie for the answers …….instead of the criticism……much more professional
Jon Jon,
Get your head out of your ass.
would not you say so “OS – Final “??? ‘much more professional”
“OS-Final” …..thank Debbie for answering Your question ………..
Ann,
As a former Marine who ran Scout Snipers as well as interfaced with S.E.A.L teams occasionally and was in the initial Gulf war I can tell you that the operation dictates how many troops are used, what vehicle is used, how many vehicles are used, how far they land from the target etc…Thie list is long and goes all the way down to an troops food, water, ammunition and even socks(a personal decision). All these decisions are biased on many factors that include intelligence information about the area, potential threat as well as situation reports from the people on the ground.
One reader that you quote contends that using a Chinook is like rolling out in a FedEx truck. That’s a poor analogy. It implies that a more suitable aircraft should have been used. The other options were the V-22 Osprey which is totally inappropriate for most landing areas in that theater, a Black Hawk which doesn’t have the practical occupancy capacity for the number of troops( more than three required), or the Sea Stallion/Super Stallion which would work in a pinch but you would probably need two given the number of troops. Platform ( helicopter ) choice, is only relevant to the mission. They’re all relatively large, at times slow and noisy as hell. Even the offensive ones such as the Cobra, SuperCobra and Viper blisters the ears. Think about the last time you heard any helicopter flying over head. The military version isn’t much quieter.
Your other readers contention of “the reason the aviation wing was created was so special ops would never again have to fly missions with anyone other than their own pilots and birds” is misinformed.
Each military force (Army, Navy and Marines) has it’s air “wing” branch for a very practical reason. The wing is a force multiplier and having the wing within say the Marines ensures a close working relationship and self reliance.
That said, it is not uncommon for inter military cooperation depending on situation and location. Hence, the S.E.A.L.S being on a National Guard helo. (I take offense to the not so subtle disparaging connotation that the National Guard is some how inferior. They are not.)
As for your Jalalabad contact and the lock down. It’s standard procedure for a situation like this to lock down communications. The reason is simple. Some or many of the people who know about the mission most likely know the people involved and there family. The military does this so that the family can be properly notified rather than some emotionally compromised half drunk friend that served with person talking with the family who means well. I know this because twice in my service I was held to this no communication command. The first was in Korea March 20, 1989 when I watched 30 people I knew crash and die. The second was in the initial Gulf war. We lost a helo in the Red Sea that took the life of 4.
I see much speculation in this article but what I don’t see discussed is that we, the United States military, kinda sort of taught these people in Afghanistan how to shoot down helicopters using RPG’s because of the USSR invasion of Afghanistan that lasted from December 24, 1979 to February 15, 1989. For the record, the USSR pulled out with a very bloody nose.
I’m not dismissing what happened. Loosing any soldier pulls my heart into a dark place with out question. Loosing this many is worse still.
What I am saying is that this article is disquieting in it’s inference.
@ Scott
Mullet, What is surprising is that they have not lost even more Chinooks.
The Chinook is a service vehicle, designed and armored for carrying heavy loads, and is not a combat vehicle particularly practical for combat operations. It is indeed like sending troops off to battle in pickup trucks, 9-passenger utility vans, or school buses. Talk of commitment to Veterans, if they came back alive!!
Leaders Offer Condolences in Wake of Helicopter Crash
http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=64947
Valiant sacrifices in the defense of Freedom and Democracy, protecting the rights of indigenous folks in other places to live and get killed freely and with dignity.
Sick of some you attempt to glorify wars, soldiers and death by violent means. It is bad enough that governments have been doing it ever since the land squabble between Adam’s two sons.
The fathers get the teary-eyed glory and bragging rights about their son’s deaths, and the mothers get condolences, a pretty trinket on a ribbon, and a fifteen dollar freakin flag. The young kids are just as dead, and they get stone memorials and parades.
“… The crash reportedly involved numerous casualties, but ISAF officials have yet to release further information.”
“CNN is reporting same unit that was on the OBL raid, but not the same men, which is probably not unusual for the same unit to be in the field, but with different men. … http://www.facebook.com/l/RAQCKEqbY/www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/08/06/afghanistan.nato.helicopter.crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1”
Scott, Thanks for the great comments. That is what the comment section is for.
“(I take offense to the not so subtle disparaging connotation that the National Guard is some how inferior. They are not.)”
Understood. From the article…’And a special one was a National Guardsman, Sgt. Patrick Hamburger, a Chinook crew chief only in Afghanistan for a few days.’ …The point with that was the level of training expected for SEAL and Special Ops work. That the Guard would not be expected to have that was not a slight… but the delivery folks would be trained to a similar level as the OPS teams.
“What I am saying is that this article is disquieting in it’s inference.” Understood again. And the comments show lots of disquieted people. We have a lot of old Intel folks here who have memories of very nasty things done because no one would find out…so suspicion is the word. There are Vietnam KIA families who do not know that their loved one did not die of a rocket attack but a claymore put unter his bed in a super fragging.
We had the Afghanistan CIA killings by the Jordanian suicide bomber, never searched coming in, and exposed to a group of top people…two breeches of protocol…and a lot of dead people.
Also from the article: ‘Some VT associates have, for many years, flown “black ops,” including SEAL teams.’
We have interviews with past administrations high officials going waayyyyyy up that Osama was dead years ago, and the ghost was kept alive for PR. There was no reason for them to lie to us. We sure as hell weren’t paying them anything. In Gordon’s article linked at the top you will see the transcript of one of the eyewitnesses inside the Osama compound who saw body parts all over from the exploded chopper. Islamabad clamped the interview and the people down after they heard about it. Of course, zero US media coverage on that, as so many other things.
And lastly, at the end of the piece: This is me: ‘Editors Note: We seem to be in the fog of war on what kinds of helicopters these teams use and when. Some checking around has turned up SEALS on Army Chinooks. Many factors may come into play as to multiple helos, day or night operation.’
We anticipated you and others having concerns. We all do. Gordon has been in three chooper mishaps. I have been in two plane incidents where I thought I was in my last moments…helpless , white knuckle fear, the worst. We have a lot of folks who have been there, and readers like yourself who have. Thanks again for you input Scott, and keep it coming. We trust you more than the public affairs officers. Jim
Surely you’re old enough to recall Col. Beckwith’s Desert One debacle, i.e. what happens when multi-service aircraft and personnel are thrown together for one-off missions. The episode was highly criticized and was the driving rationale behind the creation of everything JSOC. The ‘how dare you impinge upon the honor of (insert service here)’ smacks of an attempt at deflection.
Just to be clear, the reply was to Scott and not Jim Dean.
Recalling my earliest military life experience, the mindset of Vietnam-era leadership sure does contrast with what followed. A certain amount of cynicism and critical analysis towards upper echelon bullshit was commonplace among them, and it rubbed off. Guess it was reflective of the Vietnam era experience. However, and perhaps its a sign of the times, it sure seems that in today’s military culture closed minds prevail up and down the chain of command for both active and former members. Well, IMO if you don’t ask questions you’ll get no answers. Blindly accepting official accounts with no fact checking or critical analysis, or excusing failures with ‘support the troops’ or ‘these things are complicated above your paygrade’ mantra doesn’t pass muster far as I’m concerned.
And to elaborate on the Desert One experience and how it relates to what transpired recently in Afghanistan here’s an article excerpt on the matter. Remove the OBL/Seal Team factor and its still evident that this episode demands investigation. It seems like lessons need to be relearned.
“Beckwith openly blamed the helicopter pilots immediately after the mission. However, in his critique to the Senate Armed Services Committee, he attributed the failure to Murphy’s Law and the use of an ad hoc organization for such a difficult mission. “We went out and found bits and pieces, people and equipment, brought them together occasionally, and then asked them to perform a highly complex mission,” he said. “The parts all performed, but they didn’t necessarily perform as a team.”
He recommended creating an organization that, in essence, was the prototype of the Special Operations Command that Congress mandated in 1986.”
http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/1999/January%201999/0199desertone.aspx
Snoopy, Thanks for the framing, something we always need to be reminding ourselves with. The Air Force Mag link was great. Everybody should save this for your archives…a valuable ‘one read’ piece for those with little time to read books on stuff like this. I really had to blow the cobwebs off my Iranian Hostage memory. The Beckwith quote was great.
A few comments: The Granada ‘invasion’ was also a teacher in this regard and an inexpensive one. But it revealed what pitiful shape were were in on joint operations. I have a lady here in Atlanta, she and her husband ran the medical school there, whose house was on a hill overlooking the airport. Hubby was an old WWII British commando, Burma I believe.
They watched the 28nd Airborne come down from their back porch like being on a big movie set. She gave the film to a evacuating student who sold it to a Life Magazine reporter for $15,000 (quite a bundle in those days) when he got off the plane. He did not give her a penny. That kid is lucky it was not me.
Much of this was the military’s fault, always competing to be given operational control of operations. Fighting was intense for those missions which would get a lot of press coverage as it converted into clear sailing come budget approval time. But Grenada triggered the first real focus on joint operations, assigning personel to train on the coordiantion needed.
Today fortunately, is much better. I was surprised to see this week the 10,000 Afghan Special Ops people number. So there have been a lot of these raids run with people getting lots of experience.
But I have a whiff in my nose on the civilian casualty problem they have had the bad press on. I am suspecting that a lot of the usual supression fire historically used to defend LZ’s, etc…might have been curtailed…putting the troops more at risk to save the dead civilian bad PR situations which the Taliban has used quite effectively.
I will be very surprised if they are forthcoming with much public information. The brass will want this out of the news, with an after action report released later on, on a Friday afternoon, when it will be a one day news event and that will be the end of it.
Scott,
It’s not that simple, special operations means the missions are classified. This means 24/7 can go anything in the world, and clearances are required for planning, and planning is performed in secure locations and all who attend must have clearances, and sometimes the objective is provided and plans are made on the aircraft and in route. THAT’S HOW YOU PREVENT SECURITY PREACHES.
These are special operations personnel, and this does not mean standard operations. Otherwise security can be preached by knowledge that special operations teams are in any location or in route. In these types of operations nothing is standard operating procedure, in this world things change constantly. And that’s why I have problems with various people and contractors in these locations.
I have plenty of respect for Navy Seals, worked directly with, and will question why they were placed in a position where there were many casualties.
It sounds to me like security protocols need to be reviewed. Because many special ops people prefer to be as invisible as possible and working in smaller groups were all are known and capabilities are well understood. That’s it Marine, can’t say anymore.
Good Luck.
Alex Jones at http://www.infowars.com has three army sources talking about a setup. good American patriots, it is time you guys/girls come home and cleanup shop. The Zionist banksters and their madmen are in the process of turning the land of the free and brave into a fascist state, a shadow of former greatness with a few hundred cronies running the whole thing. Get behind Ron Paul, and lets take our country back!
Has anyone thought it strange that the US suffered it’s most heavy loss of the war including the beloved SEAL team 6 the same day that we lost our AAA credit rating. We needed a patriotic news story to divert the public from the imminent crash of the markets. It’s hard to believe but something like this happens every time the government needs a diversion from itself.
My condolences to the family and friends of the allied soldiers killed in this incident.
I saw at least two helicopters shot down in Vietnam. They are extremely vulnerable to ground fire.
good to see u back
g
You are aware that the navy S.E.A.L’s are not literally a web footed marine mammal, S.E.A.L is an acronym for SEA,Air,and Land…………….go read
The Seal Team Troops and their families have my sympathy for their tremendous sacrifice.
But this mission has all the earmarks of a set-up.
Wondering what Navy Seals are doing in a land locked country?
You are aware that the navy S.E.A.L’s are not literally a web footed marine mammal, S.E.A.L is an acronym for SEA,Air,and Land
Mr AF, they have been swimming in a sea of sand!….
Bill G. the crazy polock of west coast team now on the east coast, this is Bruce of 1st Recon, we used to raise hell on Coronado…please call Paul again (you called on the night of the OBL business) and MAKE HIM GIVE YOU MY PHONE NUMBER!! He told me you called on the day of the OBL business but wouldn’t give me your contact info.
May God be with all of these lost souls and their families. I’m not privy to special intel, but this whole mess smells of Obama. In Vietnam with the Marines, our LZs were classified until we landed, and seldom did we land without air support close by in case the LZ was hot. Something stinks in Afghanistan and I believe it’s our administration.
American Warrior, if you are that, your Ignorance preceeds your ASS. Just keep that in mind as you Teaparty like a moron!! When the Contractors were killing alot of Americans in Iraq and Afganistan, what were you saying then??!
Marines even caught Israeli ‘contractors’ during the Falujia big fight. They were running sniper teams and shooting at U.S. troops. They were treated ‘roughly’. But the whole thing was covered up…as always.
Rapid Fire: •As politicians send condolences to families of servicemen killed in the CH-47 Chinook helicopter crash, consideration is given to the development of countermeasures to protect military aircraft from low-tech weapons. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904480904576494480230791912.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
JD something very “freakin” fishy here in defense contracting their “rapid response” to this issue. The SEAL-SOC aircraft has this equip already they were the testing craft when first introduced by the geeks in sci-advance progtams…is the message it time for general NG commanders in air support to purchase???? vr dlc.
I have a feeling these poor souls were the actual Bin Laden raid team. They’ve been on ice for three months. The eye witness to the Bin Laden raid was routinely disregarded, because his claim that the helicopter exploded upon liftoff necessitated the death of an entire SEAL team, and several local agents (speaking Pashtun). Now, three months later, that is exactly what we have.
What do we do to show the world that we must stop this criminality?
BlueSky, Spread the world so folks can come here to get some background material. I would suggest new folks click on the author names (at the top) of writers you feel have helpful material and take a peek at their archives. Folks are often busy during the week. There is so much on VT I even find myself catching on on the weekend by clicking on a particular writer to look at their archive.
Gordon’s of course is the motherload. We are recycling some of these where they fit as there is no point in having good archive material buried away and not being used.
The best thing you can do to help is to pass article links out that you like to your email lists. It’s all word of mouth. No New York Times full page ads for us. We are trying to cover the writing, plus trend over into multimedia, Gordon does a good bit of radio, and then I have my video archives coming in the fall. But no matter how good the material is, if it does not get out to a growing audience…we lose. Jim
• How comes Taliban is still this strong 10 years after the war started? the very people who started the war actually made Taliban stronger behind the scene, because; war is big business for the banksters and at the same time they get to destabilize the Muslim world. all these trillions poured into wars overseas based on lies, billions poured into Israel for what? at the same time at home, American students cannot pay for college. they have tons of student loans. unless you are politically aligned with the Zionist establishment you won’t have equal access to higher education. America don’t have independent media. that’s why the Zionists who owns 100% of the media gets to speak for every side. they will let a white Christian guy to be the bad guy in the media to spill the beans of hate and a Jewish guy would be portrayed as learned and defender of civil rights. it’s all a sham. people should realize that both the good guy and the bad guy are employed by the same monstrous pro Zionist gang who oppressed and murdered millions. Jews are never the victim, they are the victimizer. the victims include people from all walks of life including our service men and women who die for no justifiable reason. Zionists commit all the horrific crimes and somehow get away with it by playing the minority card, anti Semitism, by threatening and intimidating others who dare to speak. there are great efforts and investments to cover up their crimes. people should be alert and vigilant.
Who has been arming them these past 10 years? As Sibel Edmonds pointed out, how can the known “Al Qaeda leaders” continue to elude us this entire time? What is Al Qaeda? What are we really doing in Afghanistan? For that matter, what the heck is Islamic terrorism anyways? I asked that question IRL and somebody told me it was ‘spread my the sword’ and something about raping women and Sharia Law. I asked him was Sharia Law was and he didn’t even know. Wanna see ‘spreading by the sword’ look at this history of the Catholic Church going back to Constantine. Yeah.
Islamic ‘terror’ emerged with the PFLP, which Bristish declassified docs say was a Zionist Mossad creation. Not surprising. Zionists wrote the book on terror back in the Irgun days. Islam is just a disguise for it, ‘by way of deception’ literally. It exploded in the past 30 years. Strange that in almost every case there is circumstantial evidence indicating an organized criminal network of corrupt intelligence agents involved. Mainly again Israeli Mossad. Extremism is bad and exists in all religions. Nationalism is bad and is the result of external influence. Resistance and freedom fighting is rational in the case of being oppressed. Islamic terrorism just doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s blasphemous to Islam. That’s because it’s a ruse, if Muslims are involved they’re useful idiots.
“Nationalism is bad” ??
Kashu, this is not Taliban, If it happened the perps are the ‘Contractors’, the Mercs, the Mercenaries hired to stir the Shit Pot-That’s who did this…
Agreed, TJ.
looks like they took out any witnesses to the fake Bin Laden killing
Jim,
Chinooks are not used that often, mainly for parachute jumps at night (There too slow). Usually multiple choppers, faster and can be dispersed, sometimes accompanied by gunships. Somethings wrong with this picture, former Ranger. worked with Seal Teams.
Where was the gunship? Rescue mission with NO gunship? That’s a little strange….
You know what gunships are used for, to plow the field before other choppers land.
You know they have night vision technology……
OS
Where are the “Free and the Brave’ now ….WTF….
Sorry Dean, I just pissed.
Rescue mission like this, with no gunship? Is like attempting to land troops from aircraft carrier with no aircraft..
Thanks OS , thoughts similar-This is chimp city in Africa, again. Just look in Jimmie Deans Eyes, take a HOPS….We all love Cartoons!
OS…Folks in the field tell us the Chinooks are literally taxis and the only form of transport in the mountain areas. And now that you mention it I have never seen any video of a gunship at the Afghan high altitudes, so there might be an operational ceiling issue.
I think Gordon has some Apache back seat time in. Will need to run that by him. Thanks, Jim
As you point out, it could only make sense if only a Chinook had the needed altitude operating ability. Back in Vietnam too, Chinooks, like you say, were only for back up operations after an LZ was secured, and never used for a combat assault/insertion into a hot LZ. What about the problem of having to keep that lumbering truck of a helicopter on the ground long enough for everyone to get out the ramp? And a Navy SEAL team to boot. I don’t know what the altitude of the operation was, but I was on top of Mt. Washington (6,280′) some years ago when newer Army helicopters, I think they were Apaches, were doing hovering exercises of some sort with uncanny precision in very high, gusting winds in the winter.
I believe all Jim,
Except for the only transport in mountain areas is Chinook. Have flew in Huey’s at 14K feet over deserts. Yes, and Chinook is a flying bus and tow truck, never heard of using this platform for attack or assault vehicle. Smaller vehicles like Black Bird, would be the desired platform. Especially when small teams are being inserted (dispersed), because you don’t land everyone at the small time. You secure the LZ, before you land all craft as you have stated.
Gunship – A “helicopter”, with mounted guns, rocket pods or other weapon systems, used to provide air to ground support for escort of other helicopters or Close Air Support (air to ground gunnery) for troops on ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1fkyVCPkF8
So whats wrong, Jim?
When Al Queda has always worked for you, then Al Queda is doing their job,as asked by the Spook Mole MRFR’s
My reference was not a briefing really, but a report of a quick check on SEAL/Ranger YouTube material where they had to use Chinooks when the enemy force size required it. In the video on the bottom, the initial SEAL chopper that had gone down was a smaller one.
The rescue choppers came in two Chinooks, one trying to land as close as they could and by some miscalculation were within a 100 yards of the main Taliban positions. Mind you this is with radios and guys already there telling you where the fire is coming from. The other Chinook landed further away with a though hike ahead of them, and under mortar fire out in the open.
I was thinking today, the no close air support, that that might be due to their wanting to avoid civilians casualties. These village meetings always have the usual human shield folks who always get killed in heavy fighting.
Remember there are 10,000 Special Ops people in Afghanistan. That is some major transportation.
It’s the opposite Jim, the gunship is deterrent against someone wishing of fire. Without this deterrent, then what?
correction, “wishing to fire”.
What’s wrong Jim, is it’s all about intell and risk, was the intell appropriate for the risk? Sounds like it wasn’t, and why would you repeat mistakes?
“Remember there are 10,000 Special Ops people in Afghanistan”,
Jim the only special ops people I trusted were our own; Seals, D-Force, SF, Rangers, Pathfinders, and so forth….
So you don’t trust the Australian or British SAS.
John,
It depends on the objective, you would agree?
John Robertson,
I have enough experience to understand capabilities, unity, and or fragmentation (basic human behaviors). Have worked with British and Canadian Commandos; fragmentation is an observed weakness and varies, and won’t be discussed in this comment section, but fragmentation restricts capability.
James Dean, as I have concluded from the past, you are FOS!
Jim W Dean
Where are the “Free and the Brave” ….right now Jimmy …..where are they ???????
Jon Jon…you are looking at them. There have never been many. The trick is getting leverage off of smaller numbers. We don’t have the biggest readership…but why to foreign military, Intel and media cruise VT everyday and call Gordon for interviews all the time, or offer him a daily show???
We have a certain kind of veteran that comes here…and there are kinds that don’t…like those that were only in the military ‘because the benefits were good’.
I have personal experience with more than a few of them. You ask them to do some activist work or donate some professional work for free and they look at you like you were street pandering. They did their two years, they have their benies…’and you want me to do more???…and for free???’
“This stinks to high heaven” might be an understatement. I mean NO disrespect. There is something NOT right about all this.
It’s called low budget. With no speaking roles you don’t have to pay union acting scale. Even using blanks, the production insurance goes way up…so the computer speical effects kids went to work here. I missed the stars of david though. I think the mortar fire was special effects, too.
TJ, tone it down…
They were set up from the get go. CIA all the way!
“Fun & Games” compliments of the High Cabal?