The 9/11 Passenger Paradox: What happened to Flight 93?

Dean Hartwell (with Jim Fetzer)


Once the fabrication of all four of  the alleged 9/11 crash sites (which I have documented in “9/11: Planes/No Planes and ‘Video Fakery”) begins to sink in, the question which invariably arises is, “But what happened to the passengers?”  Since Flights 11 and 77 were not even in the air that day, it seems no stretch to infer that the identities of the passengers on non-existent flights were just as phony as the flights themselves:  no planes, no passengers.  But we also know that Flights 93 and 175 were in the air that day, even though–astonishingly enough, for those who have never taken a close look at the evidence–they were not de-registered by the FAA until  28 September 2005, which raises the double-questions of how planes that were not in the air could have crashed or how planes that crashed could still have been in the air four years later?

Pilots for 9/11 Truth has confirmed that Flight 93 was in the air, but over Urbana, IL, far from the location of its alleged “crash” in Shanksville, PA; just as Flight 175 was also in the air, but over Pittsburgh, PA, removed from the South Tower at the time it was purportedly entering the building, which–unless the same plane can be in two places at the same time–established that some kind of “video fakery” was taking place in New York, as I have explained in many places. As a complement to the new study of the Pentagon attack by Dennis Cimino, “9/11: The official account of the Pentagon attack is a fantasy”, Dean Hartwell, J.D., has considerably expanded our understanding of questions about the passengers, where the manifests may include a mix of the dead and the non-existent, as well as some who may have been killed by the government to make their Hollywood-style event a bit more realistic and emotional. In the methodical fashion of an attorney presenting his case, Dean outlines the crucial questions and the most likely answers, where problems nevertheless abound.  My opinion is that these three studies constitute a “one-two-three punch” from which the “official account” can never recover.  From beginning to end, 9/11 was a fabricated event.

And, in case anyone entertains any lingering doubts, two of the most powerful indications of fakery and fraud are to be found in the punishment trial of Zacharias Moussaoui, the alleged “20th hijacker”, in Arlington, VA, in April 2006, which Scholars wrote about at the time.  He was convicted in April 2005 of having been involved in the 1993 attack on the Twin Towers, but in April 2006 he was being punished for having been involved in the 2001 attack–a federal judicial “shell game” of immense proportions.  The trial was used to introduce emotional testimony about the passengers aboard Flight 93 plotting to use a drink cart to break through the cabin door, which was picked up by the Cockpit Voice Recorder.  But, as Allan Green, a member of Scholars, noted, CVRs do not record voices in the passenger compartment.  A second blunder was noticed by a Muslim member of Scholars, Muhammad Columbo.  The last words the “hijackers” on the tape are recorded as having said are “Allah akbar!  Allah akbar!” (“God is great! God is great!”).  But as he explained, “The last words of a Muslim cannot be these!  They are used in the call to prayer or in an attack at war.  On the moment of death, a Muslim must confirm that ‘There is but one God, Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet!”  Which means that those who were composing this script did not know enough to get it right.

The most telling indication that the Shanksville crash site was faked, in my opinion, is what was not done as opposed to what was. Flight 93 is supposed to have completely disappeared because the ground was very soft from past mining operations.  Indeed, on some versions, the plane completely disappeared into an abandoned mine shaft.  But we know what to do with miners who are trapped in mine shafts.  We bring out the bright lights and heavy equipment and dig, 24/7, in the hope that, by some miracle, someone might have survived.  That it was not done in this instance tells us that there was no point in even faking such an op, which would have exposed that there was no plane there and no passengers to rescue. Think of the spectacular television coverage had such a “rescue attempt” been undertaken.  They even trimmed the burnt trees and shrubs to make sure that they could not be subjected to chemical analysis to determine whether the damage had been caused by jet-fuel based fires.  Such were the efforts of the “first responders” to save the lives or recover the bodies of the passengers.  Subsequent studies by the EPA of the crash site have confirmed that there was no residue from the jet fuel that would have been pervasive had a Boeing 757 actually crashed there.  Research on the “crash sites” thus appears to be pure dynamite in blowing the “official account” of 9/11 out of the water.


DEAN HARTWELL: The 9/11 Passenger Paradox


According to the official version of events, forty-three people, including the crew members, boarded United 93 on the morning of September 11, 2001.  The flight took off from Newark airport with San Francisco as its destination.

During the flight, four hijackers took over the aircraft.  After making calls from the airplane to relatives, several passengers rushed the hijackers in an attempt to wrest control of the plane back.  Ultimately, the plane crashed in a field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, killing everyone on board.

Investigators found human remains in Shanksville and declared that the remains matched DNA samples given by the passengers’ families.  Copies of the manifest and boarding passes show the names of passengers who took the flight.

Facts That Contradict the Official Story

The flight was airborne over the Midwest after the alleged crash in Shanksville (see below).

Wallace Miller, Coroner of Somerset County (which includes Shanksville) and one of the first to arrive at the “crash” scene, said of the area, “This is the most eerie thing,” he says. “I have not, to this day, seen a single drop of blood. Not a drop.”

Miller also reportedly said that it “looked like someone took a scrap truck, dug a 10-foot ditch and dumped all this trash into it…I stopped being coroner after about 20 minutes, because there were no bodies there. It became like a giant funeral service.”

No independent source has identified remains of any of the flight’s passengers.

Did the alleged hijackers use their real names?

David Ray Griffin speaks of the “hijackers” (whose names appear on the manifest available) in his first point in his book The 9/11 Commission: Omissions and Distortions.  He states that at least six of the hijackers showed up alive and well after 9/11!  Do we need any further reason to believe that anyone took over planes and used them in suicidal attacks that day?

MOST LIKELY SCENARIO:  The fact that several of the “hijackers” turned up alive makes it obvious that some passengers boarded using the “hijacker” names.  Instead of relatives saying that the “hijackers” called them, some of them said their relative was alive!

How Do We Know Who Boarded This Plane?  

Jack White quotes expert pilot John Lear, who shared information that calls into question whether the manifest available for Flight 93 is the final one.  He says that passenger flights have, as required by the Federal Aviation Administration, what is called “The Envelope.”  The Envelope contains “the final passenger manifest, the destination, the amount of fuel on board, the names of the pilot and flight attendants, etc., and the time the DOOR OF THE AIRCRAFT WAS CLOSED.”  According to Lear, the chief pilot signs the document.

Could changes in the flight manifest have been made between the time of the generation of the publicly available manifest, noted above, and the time of the aircraft door’s final closing?

White continues his recitation of Lear’s words:

The passenger manifest (a printout of pre-ticketed passengers) may be augmented by the chief flight attendant if passengers do not show up, or late arrivals are added. The manifest in THE ENVELOPE would include the names of hijackers, if pre-ticketed, or their written in aliases if added at the last moment by hand. In any event, every person on board would be accounted for.

Was there a second boarding or deplaning of any passengers before take-off?

This becomes a realistic possibility because there were two departure times for the flight – 8:28 AM (ACARS) and 8:42 AM (BTS).  Phil Jayhan of the Internet forum, Let’s Roll Forums, explains why the BTS, the official record, only shows one:

“Why not two different times in the BTS database? We have two separate groups of passengers. One group of people that boarded flight 93 at the terminal boarding ramp. And another group of people which boarded on the tarmac. The way that the **ACARS system works in an airplane is that when the brake is released, whether there is movement to the aircraft or not, it records an away time. The morning of 9/11, there were two of these recorded for flight 93, which might simply be another confirmation that flight 93 picked up two groups of people on 9/11 at two separate locations at Newark International Airport.”

Hypothesis:  After the passengers boarded the plane at the terminal (gate 17), the plane moved forward a short distance and then stopped at the tarmac.  The passengers who would make calls deplaned at the tarmac.  The pilot then released the brake at 8:28 AM (setting the departure time under ACARS) and moved to taxi, taking off (aka “wheels off”) at 8:42 AM, setting the BTS departure time then.  The people remaining on the plane continued in flight after the “crash” in Shanksville.

The callers used cell phones from a ground location, which had a much greater chance of working than calls from the airplane.  Some of these calls were recorded and provide proof that calls were made.  Alternatively, the calls could have been recorded prior to the flight and played to relatives.

This hypothesis explains the long gap in time between the scheduled departure time of 8:01 AM and the BTS departure time of 8:42 AM.  It also explains the other departure time frequently given for this departure (8:28 AM).  The passengers likely boarded in anticipation of an 8:01 take-off.  The callers then likely got up to leave.

The usual boarding issues and their explanation for leaving (perhaps illness) and the resulting shuffle to get them out the door on the tarmac stalled some of the time.  According to media reports, a witness (NY Giant football player Clayton White who took flight to New Jersey after Monday Night Football in Denver the prior night), saw passengers on the tarmac during this time.

MOST LIKELY SCENARIO:  Passengers boarded the plane but some of them deplaned from United 93 at 8:28 AM.  The manifest and copies of boarding passes show the names passengers gave to the airline.  Lear’s assertions on manifests and flight policy show the opportunity of how passengers could have boarded under false names and how names could have been altered.

Who allegedly made phone calls, what types of phones were used and were the calls recorded?

Todd Beamer (air phone)

Mark Bingham (cell to aunt and air phone to mother)

Sandy Bradshaw (cell)

Marion Britton (cell)

Thomas Burnett (cell, recorded?)

Joseph DeLuca (?)

Edward Felt (cell)

Jeremy Glick (recorded?)

Lauren Grandcolas (air phone, recorded)

Linda Grunland (?)

Cee Cee Lyles (cell, recorded)

Honor Wainio (?)

Were Calls Possible from United 93?

David Ray Griffin explains the utter lack of consistency in the official explanations of phone calls on the planes associated with 9/11.  He does a great job explaining how the FBI at first remained silent as to what phones were used from the planes.

He then shows the chronology of A.K. Dewdney’s report (which made it clear that cell phone calls at that time in history were only reasonably possible at altitudes of less than 2,000 feet) to the subsequent FBI report which changed many of the calls from cell to air phone.

From Griffin’s analysis of the work of researchers like Dewdney, we can easily surmise that the official story on the number of cell phones (now given by the FBI as mostly air phone) changed drastically after it became known publicly the difficulty in getting cell phones to work at typical airplane altitudes.

More issues about the alleged phone calls from United 93 arise upon inspection of information provided by the government at the Moussaoui trial in 2006:

(1) One call allegedly went past the time of the Shanksville “crash”, Todd Beamer’s last call on United 93.  Furthermore, Beamer’s call could not have happened when it purportedly did because the government’s own records show him making this call and another call from the same phone AT THE SAME SECOND!

(2) No records of calls are sourced to the companies that provided them.  This fact calls into question the authenticity of the calls.

(3) Lisa Jefferson, who reportedly took Beamer’s call, failed to mention the phrase “Let’s roll” in an interview with the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette which introduced the heroics of Beamer and others on the flight.  She also had never before heard Beamer’s voice.

(4) In fact, the FBI delayed bringing out the story of “Let’s Roll” and the passengers “fighting back” and apparently only did so to stop the story of a flight shoot-down from gaining momentum.

(5) The government, without saying as much, switched several calls in the official account from cell to air.

MOST LIKELY SCENARIO: There were no cell phone calls from the airplane of United 93.  And air phones were not available on Boeing 757s in 2001. The additional consideration, even if one were to believe those calls were possible, regardless of type or where they came from, is in the substance of the statements alleged and their inconsistencies.  The callers, whoever they were, whatever phones they used and wherever they called from, gave false information to passenger relatives at the behest of the plotters.  No reliable records show any calls having gone to Lisa Jefferson.  It is likely that Jefferson was persuaded or coerced to give false reports to the media.

Who are the Relatives?

The reaction of the relatives of the passengers to the news of the plane crashes can best be described as perplexing.  None of the passenger’s relatives arrived at San Francisco airport, as is common when plane crashes take place. In an accident that took place in Taipei involving a plane that was destined for Los Angeles, the airport set up a Counseling Center for the relatives of the victims.

What then were the relatives’ roles?

If the passengers used real names and made calls, they had to:

a)    deceive the relatives OR

b)   participate in a simulation or otherwise work with the relatives in holding conversations under false pretenses

Deception of the relatives could have taken place.  However, with all of the information out about the details of the phone calls, it would seem likely that at least one of the deceived relatives would question the 9/11 matter publicly.  If the relatives had been deceived, they would have believed the passenger calls were real.  Under this scenario, it is hard to believe that none of the relatives in the San Francisco area would show up as bereaved relatives usually do.

As there were many simulations on 9/11, the plotters may well have planned one for United 93 passengers.  Knowledge on the part of the relatives of the plot could explain how this part of the plot worked easily (none of the relatives apparently questioned what they said or who they were).  Of course, it adds to the number of people who must be paid off or killed.

The callers may have been asked to participate in a simulation of a plane hijacking.  It would have required some acting skills.  This challenge would explain several questionable statements allegedly made by some of them.  Here are some examples that do not by themselves prove the calls were fraudulent, but certainly suggest it:

A caller claiming to be passenger Mark Bingham said:

Caller: “Mom? This is Mark Bingham.  I want you to know that I love you. I’m on a flight from Newark to San Francisco and there are three guys who have taken over the plane and they say they have a bomb.”

Alice: “Who are these guys?

Caller: (after a pause) “You believe me, don’t you?

Alice: “Yes, Mark. I believe you. But who are these guys?

Another supposed caller, Jeremy Glick said, when asked if he and others were going to fight back against the hijackers, “I have my butter knife from breakfast.”  According to Dewdney:

This is strange because it implies that the caller had already finished breakfast, whereas meals are not normally served until the aircraft reaches cruising altitude, about the time that the alleged hijacking began.”

A caller who said he was Todd Beamer talked to a Verizon operator, Lisa Jefferson, for fifteen minutes instead of preparing to take on the “terrorists” with other passengers.

MOST LIKELY SCENARIO:  The callers more likely made the calls as part of a simulation than as a flat-out deception of relatives.  To believe in the theory of the use of deception, one would have to believe that (a) none of the relatives discovered they had been lied to and (b) the same relatives would agree to keep silent about the deception.

Why were the calls so important?

If the hijackings and plane crashes never happened, then what were the phone calls all about?

The calls were used to advance the “fact” that the hijackings and crashes happened.  Of secondary importance are what phones were used and where the calls were made from.

These calls are part of what holds the official theory together.  The plotters needed to make sure the calls got through and the information about hijackers was conveyed.

Whose Remains Were at Shanksville?

Here are the most relevant facts about the “crash scene” :

There were no traces of the United 93 plane at that location.

Officials claimed there were sufficient human remains to match with DNA samples even though UA93 and UA175 were airborne after the times of their alleged “crashes”.

Several news articles report human remains identified at the scene of Shanksville.

We also know that the FBI was in charge of the area, giving the agency the authority to declare who could and who could not either approach or photograph the “crash scene”.

How were the victims at the Shanksville “crash” scene “identified”?

DNA testing requires a sample from a victim at the “scene” and a sample from the victim or a close relative from somewhere else (usually given by family).

An agent (of the plot) would likely retrieve sample from the “scene” of the victim’s death.

The Agent would give samples to the tester.  (The tester, as one who would follow standard procedures, would not have any reason to go to the scene nor to question the Agent).

The agent would also go to the family to ask for samples (ex: hair, toothbrush, etc.)

The agent would then give the family sample to the tester.

If the tester were in on plot, the tests could be easily rigged.  But the tester’s statements to the media are needed.  If something “happened” to the tester, it would cause too much suspicion.  The tester would be suspicious if “scene” samples did not have appearance of involvement in plane crash.

Elias Davidsson points to a lack of a “chain of custody.” This is a legal principle which directs those who investigate a crime to document (1) how and where they find evidence and (2) how the evidence got to the point of the hearing.

He states that “there is no indication that a proper chain of custody between the crash sites and the final disposition of bodily remains had been established by the FBI, as required in criminal cases. The 9/11 Commission did not refer to any such documentation.

With no solid chain of custody, a prosecutor (the state) can conceivably bring just about any piece of evidence to the attention of the jury.  And when the public is the jury with no judge to referee, the state can use this opportunity to perpetuate a false story.

Davidsson names the evidence that the government should have shown to us if it really had a case that could be proven as to the people that boarded the planes:

In order to prove that particular individuals actually boarded the aircraft and died at the known crash sites, at least three types of evidence could and should have been produced: Authenticated passenger lists (or flight manifests) displaying their names, identification of the suspects as they boarded the aircraft and identification of their bodily remains from the crash sites.

What appearance did the remains at Shanksville have?

Miller said it took several days to get good samples (i.e. body parts not recognizable) and that the passengers were “essentially cremated upon impact.”

The cremated remains could have been distributed around the Shanksville site with some FBI agents allowing the plotters onto the land.

Could the United 93 passengers have been killed and cremated for this purpose?

Probably not.  Cremation by law must be done one body at a time and each body takes several hours.  Even an unofficial “cremation” would take too long for the plotters, considering the number of bodies (43) needed.

Hypothesis:  The plotters used cremation remains of those who died before 9/11.

Issue:  How would plotters get the DNA “samples” of the same deceased persons?

Answer:  The plotters could have run a phony company that provides or cleans ceremonial caskets for the deceased prior to cremation.  The company could have collected “hair samples” that would match those recently cremated:

“Many funeral homes offer a hardwood ceremonial casket for viewing or funeral services prior to cremation. The ceremonial (or rental) casket is specifically designed to provide a very aesthetically pleasing, affordable and environmentally prudent alternative to purchasing a casket for a cremation service.”

MOST LIKELY SCENARIO:  The remains were planted at Shanksville.  The remains could not have been those of the passengers.  No plane with passengers crashed at Shanksville.  It would also be hard to deceive the DNA testers.

What happened to United 93?

What if we could find out if messages were sent to the planes that flew and pinpoint when they were sent?  What if we could ascertain whether the plane corresponding to this flight received any of these messages?  What if any of the messages were AFTER the time the plane allegedly crashed?

We can do that!  There is a device used to send messages to and from an aircraft.  It is called ACARS, the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System.

Thanks to the work of Pilots for 9/11 Truth and others, we know that the ACARS messages sent to Flight 93 indicate that the plane was heading west over Illinois several minutes after it supposedly “crashed” in Pennsylvania!  Pilots for 9/11 Truth found that messages sent after the time of the crash were received by United 93 at ground stations far away from Shanksville.  They said that the aircraft would not have had messages routed through the ground stations that were actually used “if it were en route to crash in Shanksville, PA.”

For that reason alone, we know that United 93 did not crash in Pennsylvania.  For that reason alone, we know that  43 people were not killed in a Shanksville crash.  For that reason alone, we can call off the official story and continue our search for the real history of this day’s event.

There are other reasons to disbelieve the crash story.  In the words of Col. George Nelson, USAF (ret.), had United 93 crashed in Shanksville “there would have [been] literally hundreds of serially-controlled time-change parts within the hole that would have proved beyond any shadow of doubt the precise tail-number or identity of the aircraft.”  Yet, as with identification of the passengers, our government has not shown what would be easily understood and conclusive evidence.

MOST LIKELY SCENARIO:  The evidence proves that United 93 flew to the Midwest and was last positively traced over Illinois minutes after the “crash” in Shanksville.  The “footprints” of the plane and passenger ends here.

Where did United 93 and its passengers land?

From here on it is speculation.  The best guess is Cleveland due to its proximity to United 93’s last known position and evidence of irregular activity there.

What happened?  Plotters needed to make sure about 30 people did not get away.  The passengers may not have been aware of what had happened during the time of the flight as they did not make calls.

They would have left the plane about 11:00 AM and may have been led to a NASA building.  The plotters had to keep them away from their cell phones and the news for as long as possible.  The plotters knew that the passengers would eventually find out that they had traveled on a flight that would be tied to the official story.  At that point, the passengers would no longer have felt safe.

Can anyone tell us what happened to the passengers?

The passengers have not spoken and the plotters will not speak.  That leaves the relatives as the only group of people who may know what happened.

Hypothesis I:  The relatives received no notice before receiving the calls from the passengers.

If that is the case, then the relatives were left out of the plan and thus had no leverage as to the fate of the passengers.  Most likely, the passengers are dead.

Hypothesis II: The relatives received notice about the calls before receiving them.

If that is the case, then the relatives may have been (coerced?) into a deal: for their silence, they would receive assurances that the passengers would not be harmed.

MOST LIKELY SCENARIO:  Unknown.  Only the relatives can tell us anything about this topic.

Conclusion: The Passenger Paradox

IF the passengers took the flights under their true identities, THEN: a) they were killed in Cleveland or b) they received new identities.

Problem with a) The relatives would be furious that the government lied to them about what happened and would be responsible for the deaths of the passengers.  But the families appear to stand with the government.

Problem with b) The relatives would demand contact with the passengers, which could create difficulties in keeping what would be a secret.  It would only take one “outed” passenger to ruin the whole cover story.

IF the passengers took the flights under assumed identities, THEN they could return to society in their old or different identities.

Problem: Close friends and family would know the old identities.  In an era of the Internet and the availability of records, this might not be too hard for the public to discover.

IF the passengers deplaned United 93 at the tarmac, THEN they could return to society quickly provided that their identity as a passenger be different than their commonly used name AND the pictures shown of them are faked.

Problem: This would mean a lot of false passenger names and a lot of false relatives, though it does not foreclose the possibility of some real passengers who go to Cleveland (see the first paradox).  The key for the plotters would be to make sure the fake pictures of “passengers” get to the public quickly to create images of people who do not exist.  So the public would look in all the wrong places.


Jim Fetzer, a former Marine Corps officer, is the founder of Scholars for 9/11 Truth and McKnight Professor Emeritus at the University of Minnesota Duluth.


Dean Hartwell, J.D., is the author of PLANES WITHOUT PASSENGERS: THE FAKED HIJACKINGS OF 9/11 (2011) and DEAD MEN TALKING (2009) on JFK, RFK and 9/11.

Jim Fetzer

A former Marine Corps officer, Jim Fetzer has published widely on the theoretical foundations of scientific knowledge, computer science, artificial intelligence, cognitive science, and evolution and mentality.McKnight Professor Emeritus at the University of Minnesota Duluth, he has also conducted extensive research into the assassination of JFK, the events of 9/11, and the plane crash that killed Sen. Paul Wellstone.

The founder of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, his latest books include The Evolution of Intelligence (2005), The 9/11 Conspiracy (2007), Render Unto Darwin (2007), and The Place of Probability in Science (2010).

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51 Responses to "The 9/11 Passenger Paradox: What happened to Flight 93?"

  1. etominusipi  March 21, 2012 at 3:30 am

    interesting article – good that more light is being shed into the dark area of who was on the planes (& what planes?). one little point, which, if those transcripts are ‘authentic’, must have been said before:

    “Mom? This is Mark Bingham!…”

    nobody, but nobody, would speak to their mother like that.

  2. CoJonesGrandes  March 19, 2012 at 5:30 am

    Have you read John Lear’s affadavit on how there could not have been any planes hitting the WTC on 9/11?
    If not, it’s available here:

  3. Trowbridge Ford  March 18, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Just more of your lies, Fetzer, as I can show a reasonable published record about all kinds of assassinations, especially that of JFK, Palme and many others, and the 9/11 cockup.

    You are just showing your evil hand in running this most deceiving site by recommending that I be dropped when I have withdrawn about ten of my articles because of inaction by its editors.

    I am gone whatever they do with my request. You just cannot run everything despite your bloated ego.


  4. Trowbridge Ford  March 18, 2012 at 1:34 pm

    I don’t care who deleted my post, as I thought that this was a site which supported a free exchange of ideas – what you constantly take advantage of with your endless disinformation about what happened on 9/11, in Dallas, etc.

    I am sick and tired of playing cat-and-mouse, as I have indicated with my e-mail to John Allen, asking for the cancelation of my membership as a contributing columnist.

    It’s not that I cannot take any criticism of my posts as I am most willing to respond to them.

    I just cannot take censorship of them when they prove most inconvenient or review of my columns by the editors when they see fit.

    As for your efforts, Fetzer, they are by far the most unhelpful, vile ones I have run into in my 82 years.

    You are the supreme dissembler of truths of any kind despite your claims of being a philosopher.

    • Jim Fetzer  March 18, 2012 at 1:40 pm

      You are easily the most incompetent student of 9/11 or JFK I have ever encountered. If VT lets you go, the average IQ of the contributors here will rise. I strongly recommend that you be dropped from VT. And the sooner, the better!

    • Derek X  March 18, 2012 at 1:58 pm

      It’s always the same. Look at many of the older articles of this subject, and you’ll see that it always deteriorates to name-calling and deletions of those who disagree.

      Hope you hang around, Mr. Ford. You definitely add color to the place.

  5. Trowbridge Ford  March 18, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    Now my post about your bogus claims has been deleted at the outset, I shall not be providing any more.

    You and it are a big part of the problems, none of the solutions.

    • Jim Fetzer  March 18, 2012 at 1:11 pm

      I have not deleted any of your posts, but others may have done that. They are certainly highly deserving.

  6. Trowbridge Ford  March 18, 2012 at 10:07 am

    This discussion should have been on another thread, but I posted here because of the insults that Bill, TJ Bronco and others, as I recall though some of them have been removed, and then the absurdities that Ogilby resorted to bolster your most dubious case.

    The crux of your claims that no civilian plane hit the Pentagon, and consequently there were no passengers is based upon the fact that the cockpit door was not opened during the alleged 3-minute highjacking, consequently there was none, especially since the crew gave out no alarm. According to you, it was just a military exercise to fool people about what really hit the building, a missile.

    The biggest trouble with this claim is that Hani Honjour, because of his commercial license and experience, was allowed into the cockpit well before the hijacking occurred, and quite possibly even before takeoff since Burlingame was back with the passengers when the takeover actually occurred. In this situation Honjour could have easily taken out the co-pilot before he even had a clue about what was happening.

    And this was why you went out of your way to deny cellphone calls as Barbara Olson’s clearly explained what had happened.

    This then just made all the stuff about a military exercise and some kind of missile just simple bullshit.

    There were highjackers, there were passengers, and they all were killed when Honjour crashed it into the Pentagon.

    Have to go eat now, but when I come back I shall bring up a link about Admiral William “Bud” Flagg and his wife who were also passengers killed in the suicide bombing.

    • Jim Fetzer  March 18, 2012 at 10:47 am

      This is a ridiculous post. Until the article, whose principal author was Dennis Cimino, I had not even made reference to the cockpit door issue. The proof includes the absence of appropriate debris at the hit point; the clear, green unblemished Pentagon lawn; the aerodynamically impossible approach; the impossible collisions with lampposts; Pilots analysis of the NTSB FDR data, which shows a different approach too high to have hit any lampposts, which then swerved over it; CIT’s confirmation of a plane having headed toward the building on an approach north of the Citgo station; April Gallup’s up-close-and-personal observations; the CNN reports by Jamie McIntyre; the planted fuselage from a crash in Cali, Columbia, in 1995; and more and more and more. I cannot believe you would come here and so grossly misrepresent the evidence, which has long been available. See, for example, “What didn’t happen at the Pentagon”; “Seven Questions about 9/11″; “Planes/No Planes and ‘Video Fakery'”. It’s not just the videos that are fake, but this guy who calls himself “Trowbridge Ford” and poses as if he were an expert, when his own posts display his massive ignorance about 9/11 and his intellectual incompetence. It is a travesty that he continues to be allowed to post. His stunning mediocrity exudes from every pore. He has again discredited himself.

  7. Trowbridge Ford  March 18, 2012 at 6:57 am

    Keep it coming, Fetzer, am saving stuff like this to show what a disbelieving person you really are – one who will go to any length to hurt, and continue to hurt innocent victims of the 9/11 disasters, especially the crash into the Pentagon.

    In court, I expect Norma Lang Steuerle will be shown to have lived by testimony from her daughters and her husband, and died on that day, on that flight – what the US government paid them a considerable sum
    apparently for their loss, once it was confirmed.

    And I shall be posting more articles about the deceased for my collection of testimony which shows your endless willingness to hurt, and continue to hurt innocent victims of the 9/11 tragedies.

    I understand fully the nonsense you are claiming, that’s why I am hoping they and others will sue you to the limit for conducting such a campaign, just to hurt them for your most bloated ego.

    • Jim Fetzer  March 18, 2012 at 9:12 am

      If you can show that we have anything wrong, you should do that. Your conduct is beyond ridiculous verging into the truly demented. Take something we have asserted and explain why we maintain it to be true. Then explain what we have wrong and why what we are asserting is actually false. If you could do that, you would have done it long ago. There is no issue of libel here except for your wholly unjustified and insulting attacks on me. Get a grip, Trowbridge. You have no idea at all what you are talking about. We have proven the four crash sites were fabricated and faked.

  8. Trowbridge Ford  March 18, 2012 at 5:31 am

    Just a most amazing reduction of what you are up to.

    Here is the kind of next of kin I hope to enlist in my campaign against your most destructive efforts:

    Let’s try a new way to remember Sept. 11
    By lynne steuerle schofield


    Sunday, March 18, 2012 | Last Updated: 01:49 am

    By lynne steuerle schofield
    First Published Sep 08 2011 01:01 am • Last Updated Sep 08 2011 01:01 am
    By Lynn Schofield

    for The Washington Post

    Ten years ago Sunday, I lost my mother, Norma Lang Steuerle, when American Airlines Flight 77 was flown into the Pentagon.

    Much has changed in the world and in my life over the past decade. I got married and have two children. I have a job I love. Despite the events of 10 years ago, I feel very lucky. But I also feel conflicted.

    Every year on Sept. 11, and especially in the lead-up to this 10th anniversary, I am invited to events aimed at reflection and remembrance of that horrible day. I am grateful to the many people who make these thoughtful and well-organized events happen. Through them, I have felt the nation’s care and concern for me and for my family.

    But I can’t help but wonder if this is really the best way, now, to remember my mother and the thousands of others who died on Sept. 11, 2001. Yes, some family members and first responders are still living with illness, health problems and other horrors of Sept. 11, and for some, such events might help to heal their emotional wounds and soothe their physical pain.

    Here’s the other side, for me anyway: Sometimes I feel I am asked to attend my mother’s funeral again and again, year after year.

    I wonder what my mom, a clinical psychologist, would think of these memorials. Would she tell me to look back less and look ahead more? Would she remind me that the final stage of grief is acceptance and renewal?

    Or would she recommend that, next year on Sept. 11, we try to erect a different kind of memorial to those we lost, by participating in an event aimed at making the world more compassionate, safer and more equitable?

    What if we all spent the 11th anniversary of the attacks reflecting on what we admired most about our lost loved ones and trying to emulate those ideals?

    Or what if we spent time building not another structure in memorial but, instead, building our relationships with others? Or raising money for our favorite charity?

    When I reflect on my mother’s ideals, I think of her compassion. She spent her life counseling and listening to others. She became a friend, and she helped her clients work toward honorable solutions for their lives. She believed that people and institutions could change, but also that change takes incredibly hard work and requires getting everyone on board.

    I believe that is true for all of us — as citizens of our country and our world. If we want the world to be more compassionate, safer and more equitable, we all have to work to make that happen. We should reflect on the characteristics of our loved ones that we want to keep alive, and then we must behave that way.

    So next year on Sept. 11, please don’t invite me only to remembrance ceremonies. Instead, let’s include reflection and action.

    Let us as a country move into the final stage of grief, toward acceptance and renewal. Reflect on what you want the world to be in 10 years and then look forward and act on those reflections. Transform those reflections into reality.

    Lynn Steuerle Schofield is an assistant professor at Swarthmore College and a leader of the nonprofit Americans for Informed Democracy.

    Copyright 2012 The Salt Lake Tribune. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

    • Jim Fetzer  March 18, 2012 at 5:43 am

      Egad, man! Are you mad? This is a story, not a fact. You need to show that there was such a real person who actually died on 9/11 and how they came to meet their maker! Haven’t I made that sufficiently clear? How can you persist with this charade? Even if she was real and even if she did die on 9/11, she cannot have died in plane crashes that did not take place. Are you so dense you cannot understand this elementary point?

      And how can exposing that, whatever her cause of death, it cannot have been from a crash in Shanksville that did not occur, a hit on the Pentagon that did not take place, or from the fabrication of an arrangement of UAVs hitting the North Tower or of a sophisticated hologram entering the South commit a libel, Trow? You can produce all the published stories you want, but that does not make them true. Have you completely lost your mind?

  9. Trowbridge Ford  March 18, 2012 at 4:44 am

    Just another example of your not even reading what I write.

    In writing about the false position you put me in about being a complete idiot about the planes, I should have said that you said that it would only not happen if I admitted that a plane could be at two places at the same time. You flunked the test.

    You just go through these allegations about where planes allegedly were and weren’t then and at other times, attempting to show, consequently, that there could hardly have been any victims.

    Then you act as if you are not committing libel when you imply that next of kin engaged in massive fraud by claiming so – what would entitle them, I think, to extensive malicious damages for the hurt you caused, and punitive damages to make you stop saying them.

    I am quite sure that if some next of kin are enough upset by your libels of them that they will agree to a damage action against you and others who so claim.

    If I find out that they are not, fraudsters as you claim, I shall be looking into qui tam actions under the False Claims Act, as amended – what could result in my getting millions and millions of dollars from them.

    I seriously doubt that this will transpire, but the hoped for damages from you and yours will at least finally shut up your claims about the 9/11 disasters which go far beyond what Cheney, Tenet, Cofer Black et al. achieved – i.e., that it was a massive Operation Northwoods operation where thousands of apparent innocent people engaged in a massive cover up to help its perpetrators out.

    I hope that you don’t have to stay tuned. I hope that you hear straight from the horses’ mouths about your criminal actions.

    • Jim Fetzer  March 18, 2012 at 5:05 am

      Exposing the crash sites as fabrications does not defame or libel anyone, other than those who have presented false depictions of the events of 9/11. That would include you. So if anyone is committing libel, it is not those of us who are exposing the truth but those who are concealing it.

  10. Trowbridge Ford  March 18, 2012 at 2:57 am

    Just more of your drivel, not even being big enough to admit that you put me in a most false position about the planes issue – when I was only considered not looking like a complete idiot if I only admitted that a plane could not be in two places at once – just another example of your being a professor who can do no wrong.

    I certainly have tried to show where you are terrible wrong about there being no planes and therefore no passengers by citing who many of them are, what they have done, what their next of kin have had to say about them, etc. – what you consistently ignore by citing erroneous paper work by various officials, claims by alleged experts of various sorts, experiments with planes which allegedly made what happened at the Pentagon impossible – i.e., engaging in just the kind of false explanations that you deconstruct by others, especially those involved in causing the cock ups and their cover ups like in the JFK assassination.

    I am in the proces of getting next of kin of dead passengers, especially those killed at the Pentagon, to join a process of suing you and your supporters for malicious and punitive damages for the libels you have apparently committed – what a civil action did to O. J. Simpson for even worse crimes.

    You can continue to attack me in the most personal terms as it just shows how weak your claims are, and how desperate you are to have the last word in the arguments.

    My intended court case will hopefully put an end to the most dubious claims you are making – a process you have no interest in promoting, only keeping the spin spinning.

    • Jim Fetzer  March 18, 2012 at 4:16 am

      Well, this is fascinating, Trowbridge. Keep us current. We would all like to know what happened to any passengers aboard any of those planes we have been told “crashed” on 9/11. Since two of them, Flights 11 and 77, were not even scheduled that day, and the other two, Flights 93 and 175, were in the air but far removed from Shanksville, PA, and New York City, at the time of their alleged “crash” and effortless entry into the South Tower, if there are dead passengers, they cannot have come from planes that were not even in the air on 9/11. That, of course, leaves those, if any, who were aboard Flights 93 and 175 and might have been killed to produce bodies that could be claimed to have come from those crash sites.

      Since the medical examiner in Pittsburg reported that he did not see a single drop of blood and there is no evidence that any plane crashed there, what do you think you are going to turn up? To the best of my knowledge, no bodies from Flight 175 were found in the rubble of the Twin Towers, where even the engine that was alleged to have come from the crash of 175 into the South Tower, which was found at Church & Murray, was not from a Boeing 767. And why in the world would anyone of sound mine infer that conducting research on 9/11 that exposes these crashes to have been faked events should be a form of libel or slander against any passengers or their relatives? What is your theory of the case, because it looks insane?

      li·bel (lbl)
      a. A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person’s reputation.
      b. The act of presenting such material to the public.
      2. The written claims presented by a plaintiff in an action at admiralty law or to an ecclesiastical court.
      tr.v. li·beled or li·belled, li·bel·ing or li·bel·ling, li·bels
      To publish a libel about (a person). See Synonyms at malign.

      With reference to this definition, for example, what possible damage could we have done to a person’s reputation by exposing that they were alleged to have died in plane crashes but that was not their real cause of death? After all, if those plane crashes were fabricated events, it follows that none of their passengers, real or imagined, died because of them. Which means that, if they were aboard Fight 93 or Flight 175, in particular, and can be shown to have died on 9/11, it must have been from other causes. I should think that survivors and relatives would want to know the truth about their loved ones and would be grateful for our research. So if you have evidence of real persons who were aboard either of those flights and died on 9/11, make sure you can prove your case, because it will implicate the US government in additional capital crimes.

  11. Trowbridge Ford  March 17, 2012 at 9:46 am

    Just more of your drivel.

    You don’t even read over what you write, much less what anyone answers to your latest bs.

    Love the repeated contention that I would only stop making myself “look like a complete and total idiot”, unless I “… contend that the same plane could have been in two places at the same time.”

    You can’t loss whatever I do, and you taught logic!

    • Jim Fetzer  March 17, 2012 at 11:54 pm

      You have not only not shown that we have anything wrong but you have not even tried! I am sorry, Trow, but you are an excellent example of someone who is completely out of his depth in dealing with serious subjects like 9/11. I don’t really know what level of inquiry matches your capabilities, but it is very low. You really are hopeless.

  12. Trowbridge Ford  March 17, 2012 at 9:10 am

    The only way to prove the truth about your false, libelous claims (or my claims for that matter) is in court where the next of kin of the killed passengers will testify about who they were, where they lived and worked, the rest of their friends and family, when they last saw and talked to them, when they stopped seeing them, what did officialdom and the airlines provide about their disappearance, and why, etc.

    Then your continuing crap and others will finally be put to rest – what happened to the passengers on those four airplanes on that fatal day, 9-11-2001.

    You have a completely losing hand, and if you were ever anything more than big talking professor who never makes any mistakes and never corrects them, you would toss it in.

    • Jim Fetzer  March 17, 2012 at 9:31 am

      Well, you must be the most gullible sap on the face of the Earth. I am astonished at your cavalier disregard of evidence that contradicts your position. You have made so many indefensible posts that most readers of VT have long since concluded that you are a lost cause. I repeat that, if we have something wrong, then PROVE IT! Taking something that we have said, explaining why we said it, and showing that we are wrong? You might start with the TBS data base, the FAA registration records, and the discoveries by Pilots for 9/11 Truth that Flights 93 and 175, unlike Flights 11 and 77, were actually in the air that day but that Flight 93 was over Champaign-Urbana, IL, at the time it was alleged to have crashed in Shanksville and that Flight 175 was over Pittsburgh, PA, at the time it was effortlessly entering the South Tower. Unless you contend that the same plane could have been in two places at the same time, you are making yourself look like a complete and total idiot. This is your chance: put up or shut up!

  13. Trowbridge Ford  March 17, 2012 at 8:44 am

    Sorry, but your insults are not hurting me, just adding more evidence in case I need it for any damage suits by the next of kin over your libels about there being no planes, consequently no passengers.

    Now I believe that this is poor idiocy, but if it is true, why aren’t you trolls, taking action against the government for paying out a half billion dollars to conninving fraudsters and tens of millions more for memorials for passengers, you claim, never existed? You could be getting at least twice as much money as any fraudster received.

    Why not? Because you know that there are few, if not any, who could be sued successfully in any qui tam suits.

    You would rather spread bs about what you have allegedly done to prove that there could not have been any planes or just simply repeated personal attacks – what makes the alleged moderation on this site a complete joke.

    Just keep it flowing, guys, I can always use more libelous crap from you.

    • Jim Fetzer  March 17, 2012 at 8:57 am

      For assertions to be libelous or slanderous, they must be false. Truth is an absolute defense. And you have yet to show that we have anything wrong. You have presented contrary assertions based upon official sources, which we are challenging. You have not even shown any of them to be true. I assume if you could do that, you would, but all you have done is to cite official sources and passenger manifests that, given what we have published in these three articles, have to be fabricated or faked. So why don’t you at least try to prove that we have something wrong, not merely on the basis of denials but by taking something we have said, explaining why we said it, and showing that we are wrong? You might start with the TBS data base, the FAA registration records, and the discoveries by Pilots for 9/11 Truth that Flights 93 and 175, unlike Flights 11 and 77, were actually in the air that day but that Flight 93 was over Champaign-Urbana, IL, at the time it was alleged to have crashed in Shanksville and that Flight 175 was over Pittsburgh, PA, at the time it was effortlessly entering the South Tower. Unless you contend that the same plane could have been in two places at the same time, you are making yourself look like a complete and total idiot.

  14. MrEthiopian  March 16, 2012 at 5:58 pm

    From my years of reading and blogging, I now simply skim over the nay-sayers and concentrate on the task at hand, finding the truth.

  15. Trowbridge Ford  March 16, 2012 at 12:18 am

    Shall not be responding to idiotic claims about no planes and therefore no passengers.

    Shall be consulting legal advice if the 250 or so – or any one or ones of them – of the alleged next of kin can be sued somehow for the around $500 million they illegally, it seems, received by qui tam actions under the False Claims Act, as amended.

    You indicate that all these people of fraudsters, and I shall be looking into whether or not it can be established. There must be some who have claims that can be challenged, and I am willing to part with whatever I receive of the, say, $4 million in each challenge to prove what liars you are.

    Also be looking into that malicious damage suit by next of kin for the most hurtful lies you propagate.

    Won’t be replying more here to the insults you spread about me and them.

    Hope to see you in court. The only messages I have for Fetzer, Ogilby, the editors and managers of this site, and its posters who support them will come in the mail, and will be official ones.

    • Jim Fetzer  March 16, 2012 at 7:29 am

      Let’s review the bidding:

      (1) The BTS data base shows that Flights 11 and 77 were not even scheduled to fly that day.

      (2) FAA records show the planes corresponding to Flights 93 and 175 were not de-registered until 28 September 2005.

      (3) Pilots has shown that Flight 93 was in the air but over Urbana, IL, at the time of its alleged “crash” in Shanksville, PA.

      (4) Pilots has also shown that Flight 175 was in the air but over Pittsburgh, PA, at the time of its alleged “entry” into the South Tower.

      (5) David Ray Griffin and A.K. Dewdney have shown that all of the alleged “phone calls” from the planes were faked.

      (6) Elias Davidsson has shown that the government has never proven any hijackers were aboard the planes.

      (7) The videos in New York show the use of what appear to have been simulated airplanes.

      So how can planes that were not in the air have crashed?

      And how can planes that crashed have still been in the air four years later?

      And how can the same planes–Flights 93 and Flight 175–have been in two places at the same time?

      I think you need to give all of this just a little more thought, Trowbridge, because you are making yourself look like a monumental fool.

  16. Stewart Ogilby  March 15, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    Let’s keep this simple. 911 was a scripted, produced, and aired media show. Every purported victim, including every plane passengers is a made-up or simulated victim. Planes, passengers, crashes, and related narratives are part of the big media show of that day. Grieving relatives on TV are well paid actors. Once again, let’s all take a minute to access and save http://cluesforum.info/ – check out “Vicsims: the simulated victims of 911″ when you find the time. Is it so hard to believe that we have been lied to by our home talking movie box, the TV, and misled by videos produced and uploaded by the 911 show’s creators? I just knocked out a short column here, “The 911 Media Show And Its Victims”.

  17. Jim Fetzer  March 15, 2012 at 8:17 pm

    Independent of the government, in the first place; and no one has received a response to FOIA requests about how the bodies were identified, in the second. Dr. Robert Shaler, who allegedly performed the DNA analysis for Flights 11 and 175, where Flight 11 was not even in the air that day and Flight 175 was over Pittsburgh at the time it was allegedly impacting with the South Tower, never specifies any specific passenger for which he conducted DNA comparisons–and for obvious reasons. His book, WHO THEY WERE: INSIDE THE WORLD TRADE CENTER DNA STORY (2007), does not answer these questions. But thanks for asking.

  18. Mike Kay  March 15, 2012 at 6:52 pm

    Ultimately, a mystery.

    Yet a mystery with enough clothing to once again demolish the official narrative.

    In certain types of operations, the sowing of confusion is easier to attain with heightened distress. In such a state, the human mind cannot operate clearly. It should be clear that 911 was an extremely sophisticated operation, and was organized in such a fashion as to guarantee the maximum emotional impact.

    In my opinion, the deliberate use of punishing tactics points to an orchestrated effort to accomplish a number of things. It had to cover theft. It had to cover the dot com collapse. It had to justify the launching of wars for resource and global position. It had to provide impetus to ram through laws that would be in place to enslave the American people if and when they woke up and sniffed out the truth.

    The outstanding success of their plot still echoes today, with various shills and apologists still unable to understand that they are soylent green.

    Gotta hand it to the perps. Malevolent genius. Pure evil.

  19. aaronkelly  March 15, 2012 at 2:44 pm

    Gentlemen where do you stand on the Jayhan/Shack hypotheses concerning vicsims? Could 93 have possibly closed with such a tiny passenger load, wouldn’t it have been cancelled and doubled up?

  20. eddieleaks  March 15, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    David Griffin had me post an ebook about the phone calls. Readers may be interested in downloading it for free:


    Ed Rynearson

    • Jim Fetzer  March 15, 2012 at 1:43 pm

      Of course, we link to David’s article in GLOBAL RESEARCH here, where he is building on the work of A.K. Dewdney. Thanks for the link.

  21. Jim Fetzer  March 21, 2012 at 11:01 am

    Well, David Ray Griffin, building on the previous research of A.K. Dewdney, has a study about the phone calls on Global Research at “Phone Calls from the 9/11 Airplanes”, http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16924 Years ago, a member of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, which I founded wrote to me to explain that he had studied Social Security Death Index data and 9/11 Survivors Fund data for the 19 alleged “phone callers”, and discovered that, of the 19, only one of their names was included in the SSDI and that none of their relatives had obtained any money from the Survivors Fund, which, given our propensity to take free money from our government, would have been virtually unAmerican!

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